Did Locke Really "Have To Die?"

[JfromtheD]

"You're gonna have to die, John."

Locke sent Richard to pass along this message to, himself.

Did John really "gonna have to die?!?" :confused:

[rock-lobster]

Well, from Richard's point of view it was all locke's strange idea.

but then, from Locke's point of view, he got the info from richard.

the only reason locke told richard to tell locke is because locke heard from richard in the first place.

basically, the idea has no starting point, it was never actually conceived, it's just looping over. i think it's just one big means of course correction. an idea created by time/theisland/fate/whatever you want to call it, to ensure that locke dies, so that he can be resurrected with his new abilities.

[New Age Messiah]

The Akh, Khu and Sahu:

I'm telling you, it's Egyptian spirituality all over the place.

http://www.hwt-hrw.com/Bodies.php

Before moving on to further discussion of ritual there are several other Ancient Egyptian concepts that will aid you as you develop in your practice. One is the Akh, sometimes referred to as the Khu. This term means "transfigured spirit," the "shining one" or "luminous one." Beyond the Ba this spiritual body is one's higher spiritual self, the immortal spirit or, as the Ancient Egyptians explained, that part of the person that is "imperishable" (West 1985.65). Egyptologist A. Lloyd explains that the Akh "differs in character from all the other entities as it represents the total person in a state of beautitude and power beyond the grave, i.e., nothing less than the deceased reconstituted and placed in all respects in a position where he can function according to the Egyptian concept of the blessed dead" (Lloyd 1989.117-133). From here the highest state being, known as Sahu to the Ancient Egyptians, may be attained. Sahu is, in essence, a union with the Neteru; a merging with the divine. This is the ultimate goal of the magician following the Ancient Egyptian path.

[islander]

I really don't know if John had to die, but what matters is he thinks he had to die because he could not persuade anyone to return while he was alive so those are the instructions he relayed to himself.

[JfromtheD]

So... how did he convince them by being dead?

Because to me, the momentum began when "Jack booked a ticket."
But he was still alive then.

Maybe he's "diggin his new threads" so to speak?

[islander]

So... how did he convince them by being dead?

Because to me, the momentum began when "Jack booked a ticket."
But he was still alive then.

Maybe he's "diggin his new threads" so to speak?

Well, Ben meets Jack at the funeral home and that meeting seemed to get Jack on board. Ellie also needed someone in a coffin wearing Christian's shoes so Locke's death came in handy, but I'm not so sure it was absolutley necessary with Ben and Ellie and even Widmore trying to get everyone back.

[krakup]

Well, Ben meets Jack at the funeral home and that meeting seemed to get Jack on board. Ellie also needed someone in a coffin wearing Christian's shoes so Locke's death came in handy, but I'm not so sure it was absolutley necessary with Ben and Ellie and even Widmore trying to get everyone back.

thats one thing i found strange in follow the leader. ben says "why do you think i tried to kill him" to richard. it must've been pure sarcasm or why did he go to all that trouble keeping lockes corpse "on ice"

[bunnydixon]

YES :D

Ben knew this. If he hadn't died, chances are he would have flashed back to 77 and that would be no good. They needed him in the present and he needs to have been resurrected.

I'm just not letting this go ;)

[LostFreak21]

Did he have to die so he could come back in the casket with Christian's shoes on?

[krakup]

Did he have to die so he could come back in the casket with Christian's shoes on?

good point

[bunnydixon]

Did he have to die so he could come back in the casket with Christian's shoes on?

thats too simple - see my convoluted explanation :p lol!!!

[Brother Desmond]

Well, from Richard's point of view it was all locke's strange idea.

but then, from Locke's point of view, he got the info from richard.

the only reason locke told richard to tell locke is because locke heard from richard in the first place.

I had the impression that Locke told Richard to tell Locke he had to die because he actually did die, which brought him and his people back to the Island, which is exactly what John wanted when he left the Island.

[beachblinkette]

The scene where Locke delivers the dead wild boar to the Others that he has apparently "defeated" and killed is very symbolic, to me of ancient myths from various cultures. It's an "I am worthy" thing. The killing of the boar figures in with the double death and victory over evil of some very mythic heroes. That Locke delivers it to Richard may be important, too. In this scene it seems to me that Locke is showing us that he is THE HERO returned to life and THE ONE who will defeat the forces of evil---the dead and delivered boar. IMO

[chester]

thats too simple - see my convoluted explanation :p lol!!!

LOL LOL LOL!!!

Bunny is so funny :D

[krakup]

The scene where Locke delivers the dead wild boar to the Others that he has apparently "defeated" and killed is very symbolic, to me of ancient myths from various cultures. It's an "I am worthy" thing. The killing of the boar figures in with the double death and victory over evil of some very mythic heroes. That Locke delivers it to Richard may be important, too. In this scene it seems to me that Locke is showing us that he is THE HERO returned to life and THE ONE who will defeat the forces of evil---the dead and delivered boar. IMO

sounds like it ties in with Ulysses

[JfromtheD]

So, it's agreed... no, John didn't have to die. :D

You guys are looking too much into this "Sayid is Kate, Hurley is Charlie, Locke is Christian" thing...

Maybe I'm wrong, and if so... Sayid means nothing, Hurley means nothing, Locke means nothing, etc...

Ben and Jack had more to do with them all boarding than Locke's death did.

[smthng2dowthlost]

So, it's agreed... no, John didn't have to die. :D

You guys are looking too much into this "Sayid is Kate, Hurley is Charlie, Locke is Christian" thing...

Maybe I'm wrong, and if so... Sayid means nothing, Hurley means nothing, Locke means nothing, etc...

Ben and Jack had more to do with them all boarding than Locke's death did.

I think the whole point was so locke could be whatever he is now( zombie?jk) If he hadn't died I think he wouldn't have gotten over all his problems and faith issues.

But whether he had to die or not to get his friends back to the island, dieing seemed to work perfectly

[JfromtheD]

If by "zombie" you mean Smokie... I'm on board. :D

But what character boarded that plane because John died?

Sayid?
Hurley?
Sun?
Jack?
Kate?
Ben?
Frank?

Hell, I'll even spot you Ilanna and Cesar! ;) :D

[smthng2dowthlost]

I'm still on the fence about smokie but I'm leaning a lot harder towards smokie these days just haven't fallen yet.


You make a good point the one it was supposed to effect jack was already pretty much on board when he said jack's dad's name.Theory I think it was more a scam because they (richard and ben) wanted someone they could control(locke is easily coersed I believe is the term used by that hippie commune undercover guy) to have the power of jacob( I think to kill him you gotta be on his level or else they already would have) So they tell him he has to die to bring his friends back, bam you get what you want it just turns out he has a purpose now ( john locke is going to be trouble why do you think I tried to kill him). Did I mention it's a theory?
So did he have to die yes if you ask richard or ben. But I don't think the island or jacob or whoever is in charge needed him to die or even wanted him to die because it brought him back to life.

Basically you got me and I don't know

[Jeremy]

Well, Christian seemed to be convinced Locke was going to be a sacrifice.

I think that really though it's about making sure WHH.

[JfromtheD]

Cristian said something along the lines of 'well I guess, thats why they call it sacrafice.'
Widmore was quite unsure why he would have to die.
But "he was going to do anything he can to not let that happen."

Like I said, I'll spot you two... 'cause I don't know them.
But I got 7 that bought tickets, that had nothing to do with John's death.

[TrogdeLorean]

I think the whole point was so locke could be whatever he is now( zombie?jk) If he hadn't died I think he wouldn't have gotten over all his problems and faith issues...
I agree. Locke needed to die and be resurrected to gain the confidence that he needs in order to do what he is about to do. I think there have been multiple points in this show where people are told they have to do a certain thing to save their people, but really they are being manipulated into accomplishing something else. For example, Jack believed that he had to go back to the island in order to save his friends from the time flashes that killed Charlotte, but this wasn't true at all.

However, if you want a breakdown of how Locke's death influenced the Oceanic 6, allow me offer some just for the sake of argument:

Jack: it brought him and Ben together, and I think shook him to the point that he would trust Ben
Sun: Jin made Locke promise not to bring her back - it was only accomplished because Ben killed John, took the ring, and then acted against Jin's wishes
Hurley: we can't say yet
Kate: although she appeared to have her own complicated reasons, I think what it boiled down to was that she realized that she doesn't like her new life and decided to go with Jack - so Locke had an indirect influence here
Sayid: okay, I'm fresh out of bull****...

[thebecoming]

I agree. Locke needed to die and be resurrected to gain the confidence that he needs in order to do what he is about to do. I think there have been multiple points in this show where people are told they have to do a certain thing to save their people, but really they are being manipulated into accomplishing something else. For example, Jack believed that he had to go back to the island in order to save his friends from the time flashes that killed Charlotte, but this wasn't true at all.

However, if you want a breakdown of how Locke's death influenced the Oceanic 6, allow me offer some just for the sake of argument:

Jack: it brought him and Ben together, and I think shook him to the point that he would trust Ben
Sun: Jin made Locke promise not to bring her back - it was only accomplished because Ben killed John, took the ring, and then acted against Jin's wishes
Hurley: we can't say yet
Kate: although she appeared to have her own complicated reasons, I think what it boiled down to was that she realized that she doesn't like her new life and decided to go with Jack - so Locke had an indirect influence here
Sayid: okay, I'm fresh out of bull****...

I'm on board with this. Locke's death may have another purpose unknown to us, but without it, there'd need to be some other sort of catalyst for these characters to reconsider going back on an Island vacation.

[abcd1234]

I agree. for some reason his death did seem to start bringing them all together. they hate the guy, except for walt, yet they all sort of cared for some reason or another that he died.

also, now that he is dead it seems he is in more communication with the island. maybe because locke is so dumb, he had to die so the island could answer his constant whiny questions more easily.

maybe the big showdown is going to be locke vs. jack.

[Brother Desmond]

I agree. for some reason his death did seem to start bringing them all together. they hate the guy, except for walt, yet they all sort of cared for some reason or another that he died.

I don't think Locke's death really brought anyone together.

Jack - Was already flying a route over where he thought the Island was before Ben killed Locke. John's death solidifed the fact Jack was going to go back, but only Jack.

Kate - Didn't go back because John died. Went back to find Claire.

Sun - Went back because Jin is alive, not because John was dead.

Sayid - Was brought back to the Island against his will. He even walked away from everyone at the marina scene after he knew John was dead and Jack was trying to rally everyone to go back.

Hurley - We still don't know the exact circumstances for him going back. All we know is he was released from jail, and somehow he gathered the information that everyone was going back, and how. But I got the impression Hurley wasn't going back because John was dead, but for some other reason.

My impression is that John believed he had to die because he did die, and when he woke up he, and the rest of his people, were back on the Island, (albeit in different times). John doesn't know the circumstances of their return to the Island, so he probably thinks that because he died, and they all made it back, he should ensure that his past self follows the same course, because he knows it leads them back to the Island.

[ortrules]

John did not have to die to bring everyone back, but he did have to die for his own reasons.

Locke is a firm believer in WHH. When he saw the light from the hatch, Sawyer asked why he didn't go there and try to change things. Locke responds with something like "because I needed that pain to get me where I am today". So, Locke sends Richard to his former-self with a message that Locke has to die, because Locke dying triggered a series of events that led Locke to where he is today. So in that sense, from Locke's point of view, it was essential that he go through those motions to die.

[VeraLynn]

John did not have to die to bring everyone back, but he did have to die for his own reasons.

Locke is a firm believer in WHH. When he saw the light from the hatch, Sawyer asked why he didn't go there and try to change things. Locke responds with something like "because I needed that pain to get me where I am today". So, Locke sends Richard to his former-self with a message that Locke has to die, because Locke dying triggered a series of events that led Locke to where he is today. So in that sense, from Locke's point of view, it was essential that he go through those motions to die.

That is exactly it. It doesn't matter if everyone still would have gone back if he hadn't died, because that isn't what happened. We need not concern ourselves with alternate possibilities to events we have already seen. Locke certainly doesn't.

[Mat]

I just do not think we have enough evidence to answer this question yet....

What we did find out from this last episode is that ageless Richard is just a mindless pawn...way back when we first witnessed him telling locke this we all thought he was 'in the loop' so to speak, and he knew what was going on. But now we realize he really doesnt know a whole lot of anything, which is odd because he has been there for so long just going through life, not really doing much of anything.

[hyperchord24]

Let's not forget that the island told Locke where time traveling Locke was. I'm sure the island also told Locke to tell time traveling Locke that he to die. It's not really a loop. Did he have to die? I don't think so, but if my previous assumption is correct, then the island is going to have its reasons.

[LostFreak21]

Remember early on in the series when Jack was running and he fell off the cliff/ledge and just as he was going to let go Locke was there to save him. He should have had no idea that Jack was going to do that unless he had lived it before or the Island told him.

[Jeremy]

Let's not forget about that proxy business either. Maybe dieing wasn't supposed to give them the idea to go back, but rather to make it possible.

[linuxit]

If Locke said he needed to die, why question it?

About the same thing already happened to Jin and nobody questioned it. Jin was blown up on the freighter, but somehow was not hurt, then he was sent back in time to 1988 where a lifeboat with Rousseau and her mates find him in the ocean. Hmmm. Coincidence?

[Chronos]

So, it's agreed... no, John didn't have to die. :D

You guys are looking too much into this "Sayid is Kate, Hurley is Charlie, Locke is Christian" thing...

Maybe I'm wrong, and if so... Sayid means nothing, Hurley means nothing, Locke means nothing, etc...

Ben and Jack had more to do with them all boarding than Locke's death did.

I don't think you can say that Locke didn't have to die.... just as you can't say that he did have to die.

The point of the matter if that Richard's statement "you're going to have to die" is coming from a statement of fact that Locke made to Richard. It's a fact that he died, Ben killed him. It's a funny way of stating a fact because it's being said to a person who is from the past (time-travelling Locke). It's another piece to the WHH puzzle.

[hogwild96bob]

Okay, I am going to go off the deep end here...

2007 locke is smokie

The locke we know and love died. He went to island with the 1977 crew. No one has found the casket (probably at the bottom of the pool where Hurley landed)

I could be mistaken, but did anyone from '54 or '74 ever mention Jacob? We know time jumping Locke mentioned Jacob to RA in '54, but there was no acknowledgement of his existence. If they didn't, perhaps it is because Jacob didn't enter the equation until '77. Christian convinces Locke he has to die; why? Because he has a greater purpose...

2007 Locke(smokie) wants to kill Jacob because he's actually Locke (our Locke). The only reason Locke could hear Jacob is because Locke IS Jacob. Locke/Jacob is trying to wrest control of the island from EVIL smokie, but he cannot do it until he is released from the cabin, so Miles is there to communicate with him. Miles will have to relay to the other Losties what has to happen to save the island.

[linuxit]

Locke needed to die because he is the son of god and the second coming of Jesus. Watch episode "316" again when Ben and Jack are in the church.

From the bible John 3:16-
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Richard Alpert?

John Locke suicide note - "Jack, I wish you had believed me. JL."
Is this foreshadowing?

[Panda]

Locke needed to die because he is the son of god and the second coming of Jesus. Watch episode "316" again when Ben and Jack are in the church.

From the bible John 3:16-
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Richard Alpert?

John Locke suicide note - "Jack, I wish you had believed me. JL."
Is this foreshadowing?

Maybe he is not the son of god, maybe he believes he is the son of god, as his mother told him that he was immaculate conceived.
If he was raised with Christian believes...well then he might think that he is like Jesus .....

I don't know enough about Christianity to be honest and never read the bible...but was Jesus paralyzed a part of his life? Due to someone who conned him?

Or are you comparing Locke to Jesus only for the part where "he had to die"?

[Chronos]

We know time jumping Locke mentioned Jacob to RA in '54, but there was no acknowledgement of his existence.

True, but the mentioning of Jacob's name got RA to insist that Widmore lower his weapon after a pretty obvious pause... he never said "Who the hell is Jacob?"

[Chronos]

Maybe he is not the son of god, maybe he believes he is the son of god, as his mother told him that he was immaculate conceived.
If he was raised with Christian believes...well then he might think that he is like Jesus .....

I don't know enough about Christianity to be honest and never read the bible...but was Jesus paralyzed a part of his life? Due to someone who conned him?

Or are you comparing Locke to Jesus only for the part where "he had to die"?

The writers of Lost use a lot of religious and scientific imagery not with the intent to provide answers but to distract us. I really do not believe that they're headed in the direction of showing us the second coming of Christ.

[Panda]

The writers of Lost use a lot of religious and scientific imagery not with the intent to provide answers but to distract us. I really do not believe that they're headed in the direction of showing us the second coming of Christ.

I don't know enough on all religions in the world to catch all these connections.
Even the whole Egypt thing doesn't say me much, as I hardly know anything on ancient Egypt.
Now a TV show is most of the time made to give people some distraction.
So even without knowing all the science, religions, history,...I am distracted anyway...:D

[Chronos]

I don't know enough on all religions in the world to catch all these connections.
Even the whole Egypt thing doesn't say me much, as I hardly know anything on ancient Egypt.
Now a TV show is most of the time made to give people some distraction.
So even without knowing all the science, religions, history,...I am distracted anyway...:D

Amen to that! :D

[JfromtheD]

But I don't think the island or jacob or whoever is in charge needed him to die or even wanted him to die because it brought him back to life.
Interesting thought... knowing what we know, now.

[losttime]

"You're gonna have to die, John."

Locke sent Richard to pass along this message to, himself.

Did John really "gonna have to die?!?" :confused:

It wasnt really JL who told RA to tell JL he had to die.

[SpaceBar]

I think the answer to all our questions may be just a little simpler. See, I've thought this for a while.

Everyone has theories of mirror worlds, spiritual beliefs, religious signs and viewpoints, but I'm sure many of LOST's viewers aren't quite as hardcore as the folk of this board.

MAybe it'll be simpler than we think.

[losttime]

I think the answer to all our questions may be just a little simpler. See, I've thought this for a while.

Everyone has theories of mirror worlds, spiritual beliefs, religious signs and viewpoints, but I'm sure many of LOST's viewers aren't quite as hardcore as the folk of this board.

MAybe it'll be simpler than we think.

Thats right like JL isnt JL but someone pretending to be JL

[JfromtheD]

It wasnt really JL who told RA to tell JL he had to die.
yeah, I know... this was before we met Jacob and his pal.

I was just looking back thru some old threads.
It's interesting to re-read some things.

[SpaceBar]

That's true, JfromtheD.

And Losttime, maybe the simpler explanation is that the series main character just isn't dead.

[ortrules]

That's true, JfromtheD.

And Losttime, maybe the simpler explanation is that the series main character just isn't dead.

Because it would be much easier to explain how Locke is really alive even though we saw his dead body in the crate?

[SpaceBar]

Just as simple as explaining why Locke is dead, and yet his body is still walking around.

[losttime]

Just as simple as explaining why Locke is dead, and yet his body is still walking around.

Have you seen every episode of Lost sice S1E1?

[ortrules]

Just as simple as explaining why Locke is dead, and yet his body is still walking around.

My reason for why Locke is dead and yet his body is still walking around: He is a manifestation of Smokie/anti-Jacob - which has already been shown through Yemi.

So what's the just as simple explanation for why Locke is alive even though we saw his dead body?

[losttime]

My reason for why Locke is dead and yet his body is still walking around: He is a manifestation of Smokie/anti-Jacob - which has already been shown through Yemi.

So what's the just as simple explanation for why Locke is alive even though we saw his dead body?

It baffles me to Ort. I been trying to convey this point for some time now. The Locke we know is dead. We also have the example of the men that Eko killed confronting him on the Isalnd as well. I think its the same episode as we see Yemi and him or a few before it.

[ortrules]

It's beating a dead horse at this point, but here we go. This is the transcript when Locke's dead body was shown:

ILANA: Richard... I'm Ilana. I have something you need to see. [Shouting, to her team] Open it up.

[The Others cock their guns]

RICHARD: It--it's okay. It's okay. Let them.

RICHARD: Where did you find him?

ILANA: In the cargo hold of the plane we came here on... in a coffin.

SUN: I don't understand. If this is Locke... who's in there?

This is the big twist! They even reinforce it with Sun saying "If this is Locke... who's in there?"

[losttime]

It's beating a dead horse at this point, but here we go. This is the transcript when Locke's dead body was shown:

ILANA: Richard... I'm Ilana. I have something you need to see. [Shouting, to her team] Open it up.

[The Others cock their guns]

RICHARD: It--it's okay. It's okay. Let them.

RICHARD: Where did you find him?

ILANA: In the cargo hold of the plane we came here on... in a coffin.

SUN: I don't understand. If this is Locke... who's in there?

This is the big twist! They even reinforce it with Sun saying "If this is Locke... who's in there?"

And the look of concern on both Ilana and RA's face when she said that. More so Ilana because she didnt know "it" was in the statue already.

[LOSTLOST]

idk if this was said i didnt read all of the posts but Locke needed to die so he could exsist at the point where (MiB)Locke could tell Richard to tell real locke to die

[rachelskid]

idk if this was said i didnt read all of the posts but Locke needed to die so he could exsist at the point where (MiB)Locke could tell Richard to tell real locke to die

god help us all.

[JfromtheD]

I'm a little hungover, and a lot tired. But my foggy brain wonders...
Did Locke have to die, in order for smoke/nemisis to take over?
Yemi and Alex may have been dead, but the medusa spiders weren't.

And would that give a shred of hope to the Vincent/Jacob theory? :D

[losttime]

I'm a little hungover, and a lot tired. But my foggy brain wonders...
Did Locke have to die, in order for smoke/nemisis to take over?
Yemi and Alex may have been dead, but the medusa spiders weren't.

And would that give a shred of hope to the Vincent/Jacob theory? :D

With the Mudusa Spider, Smokey took the form of the spider. Its safe to say that Medusa spiders have died on the Island so that would cover the whole "needing to be dead" for Smokey to take its form. But since thats a lame explanation, I believe we have seen instances where Smokey pretended to be someone even when they were alive. I personally dont believe that the person has to be dead necessarily for Smokey to take its form. One example is with Walt. I think TPTB mentioned that some of the appearances of Walt was Smokey just didnt tell us which one. Also the horse, we dont know if the horse kate saw was dead on when she was on the Island and also the example of the Boar. I thought they said the boar that went aftrer Sawyer was Smokey but not sure about that one. But having said that, I still think JL is dead and someone or something is pretending to be him. That scene where Jacob said "I see you found your loophole", if you saw Jacob's expression just prior to the iLocke said "Hello Jacob" It was almost as if he knew right away he was talking to Beachboy.