The Compass Proves WHH is Toast [Archive]

islander

05-13-2009, 03:50 AM

We know the compass was constructed sometime, somehow, but it currently exists in a loop where Locke gives it to Richard in 1954 and Richard gives it back to Locke in 2007.

As far as the compass is concerned what is happening now could not have happened before. The compass should not exist - it currently has no date of construction while it's in the loop.

Again, who/what controlled the flashes that created the compass loop visa vis Locke and Richard? The Island.

The Island is changing what happened.

This is fun. :D

thebecoming

05-13-2009, 03:55 AM

HisNameIsRobertPaulson

05-13-2009, 03:58 AM

You could be right, but we do not know whether there is a 2nd compass (or more accurately a masked origin of "the" compass) that only makes it appear like it is in a loop.

islander

05-13-2009, 04:00 AM

Wait... what? The compass is in a loop. There is no date of construction for the compass. Therefore, WHH is false?

I'm not following this.

How did the compass get on the island? It has a history, but that history has been changed because right now we can't trace it back to its obvious origin.

HisNameIsRobertPaulson

05-13-2009, 04:05 AM

It has a history, but that history has been changed because right now we can't trace it back to its obvious origin.

The fact that we haven't been given the full story of the compass does not obligate it to one path over another. Both logically remain as possibilities. It's guesswork to try to figure out whether or not there was a masked origin or if it is actually and currently in a loop.

islander

05-13-2009, 04:10 AM

The fact that we haven't been given the full story of the compass does not obligate it to one path over another. Both logically remain as possibilities. It's guesswork to try to figure out whether or not there was a masked origin or if it is actually and currently in a loop.

The WHHers tell me everything that happpens, happened, and right now the evidence suggests the history of the compass has been changed, unless someone can tell me how it got on the island. How do you know that's not the full story of the compass?

New Age Messiah

05-13-2009, 04:14 AM

The WHHers tell me everything that happpens, happened, and right now the evidence suggests the history of the compass has been changed, unless someone can tell me how it got on the island.It's from the Black Rock. I think.

Don't know if that type was constructed back then, but...

I 99% guarentee all the Losties are former passengers/crew members of the Black Rock being reincarnated, or whatever.

islander

05-13-2009, 04:18 AM

It's from the Black Rock. I think.

Don't know if that type was constructed back then, but...

I 99% guarentee all the Losties are former passengers/crew members of the Black Rock being reincarnated, or whatever.

That's a distinct possibility that it originally came from the Black Rock, but right now we can't even tell whether it was Richard's or Locke's - it has no beginning or end.

thebecoming

05-13-2009, 04:21 AM

How did the compass get on the island? It has a history, but that history has been changed because right now we can't trace it back to its obvious origin.

That there is no explanation for the origin of the compass does not imply that history has been changing.

I've said this in other posts: it is very possible that the compass does not have an origin. It would be a paradox to have an eternal compass but it would be a paradox of an entirely different nature than if someone were to go back in time and change the past. In this case, a time loop of this nature would follow along with the idea that destiny created the timeline and inserted the compass into such a loop. It would follow along more with the evidence seen in S5, that destiny is shaping how the time-travelers influence the past, and that they are making choices in ways already predetermined.

And for the opposing perspective: so far, I haven't seen a logical explanation that explains how the compass entered the time loop.

HisNameIsRobertPaulson

05-13-2009, 04:25 AM

...right now the evidence suggests the history of the compass has been changed

What do you mean it has been changed? Changed from what? We don't know any other history for the compass. We are led to believe that it is in a cycle, but we don't know that Richard didn't give a different compass to Locke.

How do you know that's not the full story of the compass?

Presumably, the compass will yet be explained. If we're left with no more story of the compass, then we will still not have seen any change (again: change *from* what?)

lostboy51

05-13-2009, 04:45 AM

[QUOTE=HisNameIsRobertPaulson;221296]What do you mean it has been changed? Changed from what? We don't know any other history for the compass. We are led to believe that it is in a cycle, but we don't know that Richard didn't give a different compass to Locke.

Yes it is in a loop but for how long ? When we first saw richard gave it to John if was in good shape but when john ask richard for it the compass was all old and almost rusted witch could be only 53 years had gone by or it was replace at some time. Witch I think it might of just started.

notsolost42

05-13-2009, 04:46 AM

How did the compass get on the island? It has a history, but that history has been changed because right now we can't trace it back to its obvious origin.

Locke had two compasses when he came to the island. Locke time traveled to 1954 bringing his compasses with him. Locke gives one to Richard in 1954. Richard is in possession of the compass. Locke time travels to 2007. He sees Richard and askes for his compass back. Richard shows it to him. He gives it back to Locke in 2007. But 1954 already happened. What loop?

thebecoming

05-13-2009, 04:53 AM

Locke had two compasses when he came to the island. Locke time traveled to 1954 bringing his compasses with him. Locke gives one to Richard in 1954. Richard is in possession of the compass. Locke time travels to 2007. He sees Richard and askes for his compass back. Richard shows it to him. He gives it back to Locke in 2007. But 1954 already happened. What loop?

In 2007, Future Locke asks Richard if he has Locke's compass. We are led to believe Future Locke means the compass he gives Richard in 1954. Richard takes this compass (given to him in 1954) and gives it to Past Locke (with the wounded leg) in 2007 before he time travels. Past Locke time travels to 1954, hands Richard the compass, and flashes away. Next verse, same as first.

Pung

05-13-2009, 04:56 AM

seriously...there are at least two other threads discussing this. Did you really need to start another to prove nothing? WHH or TCC or HCC will all be irrelevant to the end result of the series.

notsolost42

05-13-2009, 04:57 AM

seriously...there are at least two other threads discussing this. Did you really need to start another to prove nothing? WHH or TCC or HCC will all be irrelevant to the end result of the series.

Besides, its all a closed timelike curve which is a spiral and each spiral is three years apart......

Greg Dharma

05-13-2009, 05:14 AM

It's from the Black Rock. I think.

Don't know if that type was constructed back then, but...

I 99% guarentee all the Losties are former passengers/crew members of the Black Rock being reincarnated, or whatever.

this is the most logical explanation. alpert (who probably got it from the Black Rock) gave it to locke who gave it back to alpert who gave it to locke.

but i think the OP's question is interesting: how does WHH apply to time loops? and specifically, to physical objects, not sentinent beings, in time loops? it's really simpler than it seems.

the Losties have been jumping in time. they take stuff with them. the stuff jumps because they jump. it doesnt jump on its own.

the compass seems to be in a time loop appearing simultaneously at both ends. but it's actually not a paradox because the future timeline hasnt technically happened yet. in other words, the compass is a constant, not a variable.

InTheBeginning

05-13-2009, 05:15 AM

I don't know if anyone has done this yet. Here is a compass that looks very similar to one of the compasses...
http://www.compassmuseum.com/images/pocket2/mo_armeebelge_gr.jpghttp://lost.cubit.net/assets_c/2009/01/5x01_compass2-thumb-470x264.jpg
According to the page http://www.compassmuseum.com/pocket/pocket_2.htm#MORIN webpage, it is a MORIN model 9194, made in the 1930's. MORIN was a French company...Russeau?? FWIW

New Age Messiah

05-13-2009, 05:45 AM

it is a MORIN model 9194, made in the 1930's. MORIN was a French company...Russeau??I have barely paid any attention to the compass thing, but it seems there are several of them. If there were several, several of the crew of the Black Rock were carrying compasses, makes sense. I don't think anyone stole anything from Rouseau, she had guns, and I doubt she ahd several compasses.

The knife Locke chose in front of Alpert was probably on the Black Rock, as was the compass. "What's Locke going to do this life?" type exercise.

chester

05-13-2009, 05:52 AM

I have barely paid any attention to the compass thing, but it seems there are several of them. If there were several, several of the crew of the Black Rock were carrying compasses, makes sense. I don't think anyone stole anything from Rouseau, she had guns, and I doubt she ahd several compasses.

The knife Locke chose in front of Alpert was probably on the Black Rock, as was the compass. "What's Locke going to do this life?" type exercise.

But how could it be from the Black Rock, if it wasn't made until the 1930's?

If they can steal her child, I don't see a compass being too much of a problem. But it need not have been stolen anyway. It could just have been found amongst the French reckage, or was just discarded.

New Age Messiah

05-13-2009, 06:10 AM

But how could it be from the Black Rock, if it wasn't made until the 1930's?It couldn't. But the compasses weren't (in my opinion) even close to identical. And manufacturing techniques were slow to evolve back then, so the same compass, essentially, could have been made 50 years earlier.If they can steal her child, I don't see a compass being too much of a problem. But it need not have been stolen anyway. It could just have been found amongst the French reckage, or was just discarded. If so, it wouldn't be symbolic, in my opinion, it wouldn't be important.

They show it for a reason, or they don't show it.

lost-a-lot

05-13-2009, 08:07 AM

According to the page http://www.compassmuseum.com/pocket/pocket_2.htm#MORIN webpage, it is a MORIN model 9194, made in the 1930's. MORIN was a French company...Russeau?? FWIW

Interesting! Thanks for posting that. I wonder if the French presence in Tunisia in the early 20th century will be relevant.

abcd1234

05-13-2009, 11:38 AM

i didnt read all 3 pages of this thread, so sorry if I cover someone elses rational point:

the compass was made back in the day, but pirates or the british, who knows. richard buys it for a potato, because he comes from such an ancient time that was all it cost. he brings it to the island. locke bloops in 1954, and gives him the same compass, aged 50 years. and BAM he has 2 compasses. in 2007 (?) he gives the less old compass to locke, and keeps the one locke (already) gave him.

no time loop, WHH is not wrong (at least not because of this).

ortrules

05-13-2009, 02:24 PM

In another thread, which baffles me to have more than one when all this has been discussed in the other, I put up a scenario where the compass is not really in a loop, it just appears to be.

1- In 1988, Rousseau crashes on the island. Richard takes a compass he finds from their stuff.
2- Richard gives that compass to time skipping Locke.
3- Time skipping Locke returns to compass in 1954.
4- The compass breaks.
5- In 1988, Rousseau crashes on the island. Richard takes a compass he finds from their stuff.

Now that this is over with, might I advise this discussion be continued only in the threads Chester or TrogdeLorean started, as it talks about all this in more depth.

http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9120
http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9201

abcd1234

05-13-2009, 03:38 PM

also a possibility. either way - NO TIMELOOP

thebecoming

05-13-2009, 04:39 PM

In another thread, which baffles me to have more than one when all this has been discussed in the other, I put up a scenario where the compass is not really in a loop, it just appears to be.

1- In 1988, Rousseau crashes on the island. Richard takes a compass he finds from their stuff.
2- Richard gives that compass to time skipping Locke.
3- Time skipping Locke returns to compass in 1954.
4- The compass breaks.
5- In 1988, Rousseau crashes on the island. Richard takes a compass he finds from their stuff.

Except that in 2007, Future Locke asks specifically for *his* compass from Richard, and Richard doesn't skip a beat and produces said compass. Again, the evidence suggests this most certainly is a time loop.

abcd1234

05-13-2009, 04:43 PM

Not A Timeloop

thebecoming

05-13-2009, 04:47 PM

Not A Timeloop

lol, I don't think I'll ever get an actual response, let's just see what happens I guess.

abcd1234

05-13-2009, 04:49 PM

I didnt realize you were looking for a response - so richard knows what compass locke is talking about, but how would that be different then if he had two? especially if the older one broke?

ortrules

05-13-2009, 05:13 PM

Except that in 2007, Future Locke asks specifically for *his* compass from Richard, and Richard doesn't skip a beat and produces said compass. Again, the evidence suggests this most certainly is a time loop.

A - The compass was never Locke's to begin with. The only time Locke "owns" the compass is between 2007 when he gets it from Richard to his time jump to 1954 when he gives it back - the span of a few hours.

B - If Richard breaks the compass and gets a new one to replace it, he'll know what compass Locke is referring to. But Richard will hide the fact that it's not quite the same compass.

thebecoming

05-13-2009, 05:33 PM

A - The compass was never Locke's to begin with. The only time Locke "owns" the compass is between 2007 when he gets it from Richard to his time jump to 1954 when he gives it back - the span of a few hours.

B - If Richard breaks the compass and gets a new one to replace it, he'll know what compass Locke is referring to. But Richard will hide the fact that it's not quite the same compass.

A: Locke is certainly referring to that same compass he gave Richard, even if it was only in his possession for a short time. Future Locke addresses it as *his* compass to remind Richard that he gave it to him in 1954.

B: It's possible, but his stunned body language and demeanor suggest that it is, in fact, the same compass. And if it were truly the case that Richard broke the original compass and obtained a new compass, why would the writers not include one simple line by Richard to explain to Locke that, "Hmm, well that old compass broke years ago, but here's another one." It would have been a simple fix to this interesting paradox. Because of this, I am thinking there is something truly symbolic behind this curious compass.

ortrules

05-13-2009, 06:27 PM

A: Locke is certainly referring to that same compass he gave Richard, even if it was only in his possession for a short time. Future Locke addresses it as *his* compass to remind Richard that he gave it to him in 1954.

B: It's possible, but his stunned body language and demeanor suggest that it is, in fact, the same compass. And if it were truly the case that Richard broke the original compass and obtained a new compass, why would the writers not include one simple line by Richard to explain to Locke that, "Hmm, well that old compass broke years ago, but here's another one." It would have been a simple fix to this interesting paradox. Because of this, I am thinking there is something truly symbolic behind this curious compass.

A- Locke says: You still have that compass I gave you? He does not claim the compass as his.

B- Let's say you're in Richard's position. A guy claiming to be from the future gives you a compass and says he is your leader. Later, you break that compass. The next time you run into him, he asks for his compass back. Would you be so willing to tell him you broke his compass? Or would you be somewhat afraid of telling him the truth and hope he just doesn't notice the difference? I think most people would be too afraid to explain the truth.

lostie108

05-13-2009, 07:02 PM

The WHHers tell me everything that happpens, happened, and right now the evidence suggests the history of the compass has been changed, unless someone can tell me how it got on the island. How do you know that's not the full story of the compass?

i have been saying that whh forever and that anything can change just that in the end time course corrects things to how they are supposed to be . i do not understand why it has to be one or the other . it can definately be both.

thebecoming

05-13-2009, 08:24 PM

A- Locke says: You still have that compass I gave you? He does not claim the compass as his.

B- Let's say you're in Richard's position. A guy claiming to be from the future gives you a compass and says he is your leader. Later, you break that compass. The next time you run into him, he asks for his compass back. Would you be so willing to tell him you broke his compass? Or would you be somewhat afraid of telling him the truth and hope he just doesn't notice the difference? I think most people would be too afraid to explain the truth.

A: This is arguing semantics. The point is, Future Locke asks for the compass he gives Richard in 1954, not some other compass.

B: This inference relies on the premise that Richard is fearful of time traveling Locke, and I don't think it is a very strong premise; Richard is this ageless being that acts as some sort of "Advisor" to the leader. At this time, what suggests that he would be fearful of Locke? Is he worried Locke will smite him down?

And if the premise were true and he were fearful, why would he risk a lie like that? Richard in 1954 ought to have assumed that Locke knew what the compass looked like. Wouldn't he have then figured that Future Locke would also know what the compass he gave Richard looked like? That just seems like a bold, risky lie.

islander

05-13-2009, 08:47 PM

LOL...two compasses??...or better yet the 1954 compass broke and Richard ordered a new one from Wal*Mart??...LOL...here's the dialogue below, Richard and Locke are clearly referring to the same exact compass that Richard gave Locke in 2007 and then Locke returned in 1954 - it couldn't be more clear:

"You still have that compass I gave you?" Locke asks.

Richard pulls it out of his pocket. "Little rusty, but she can still find north."

Richard didn't say, " I broke that one, but this one is an able replacement". How can anyone argue with that original dialogue?

The point of this thread is to highlight the Island changed the history of the compass through the flashes because hopefully we can agree that the compass originally didn't just appear out of thin air.

I don't really care whose compass it was, all I know is it currently has no beginning or end that the WHHers can point to without speculation of dual compasses which totally contradicts the dialogue, so SOMETHING had to have changed.

Personally, I think Ethan shooting Locke was the change, and the Island needed some flashes to heal Locke before it selected him to be the future leader. If Ethan doesn't shoot Locke, then the compass doesn't get caught up in any of this.

chester

05-13-2009, 08:47 PM

A: Locke is certainly referring to that same compass he gave Richard, even if it was only in his possession for a short time. Future Locke addresses it as *his* compass to remind Richard that he gave it to him in 1954.

B: It's possible, but his stunned body language and demeanor suggest that it is, in fact, the same compass. And if it were truly the case that Richard broke the original compass and obtained a new compass, why would the writers not include one simple line by Richard to explain to Locke that, "Hmm, well that old compass broke years ago, but here's another one." It would have been a simple fix to this interesting paradox. Because of this, I am thinking there is something truly symbolic behind this curious compass.

I agree, thebecoming. I think the TPTB have gone to lengths to show the compass is in a loop, and this means something. They even confirmed this is the case.

islander

05-13-2009, 08:59 PM

I agree, thebecoming. I think the TPTB have gone to lengths to show the compass is in a loop, and this means something. They even confirmed this is the case.

There are lots of little inconsistencies floating around chipping away at WHH, but this is a big one.

chester

05-13-2009, 09:09 PM

There are lots of little inconsistencies floating around chipping away at WHH, but this is a big one.

Especially if it is actually rusting. I wish they showed us the compass again when Richard gives it to past Locke "again".

islander

05-13-2009, 09:45 PM

Locke had two compasses when he came to the island. Locke time traveled to 1954 bringing his compasses with him. Locke gives one to Richard in 1954. Richard is in possession of the compass. Locke time travels to 2007. He sees Richard and askes for his compass back. Richard shows it to him. He gives it back to Locke in 2007. But 1954 already happened. What loop?

The purpose of this thread isn't to debate the compass - I think the dialogue speaks for itself. The dialogue couldn't be more clear - Locke and Richard are talking about the same compass:

"You still have that compass I gave you?" Locke asks.

Richard pulls it out of his pocket. "Little rusty, but she can still find north."

Locke did not say, "Do you still have MY compass". One compass is given to Richard in 1954 because it was given to Locke in 2007 - hence the loop, and hence something changed.

islander

05-13-2009, 09:49 PM

i have been saying that whh forever and that anything can change just that in the end time course corrects things to how they are supposed to be . i do not understand why it has to be one or the other . it can definately be both.

I disagree with that - one tinsie weensie miniscule change can have a huge impact. If time corrects things to how they are "supposed to be" then, by definition, something changed.

thebecoming

05-13-2009, 10:34 PM

There are lots of little inconsistencies floating around chipping away at WHH, but [the compass being in a time loop] is a big one.

But this is a faulty argument. You are using a conclusion drawn from a premise to show that the same premise is wrong.

I had said that, because there is not a logical explanation for how the compass had an origin, it is possible that the compass has always been in the time loop and that the compass is symbolic.

Your response is, because the compass is in a time loop and could be symbolic, there is a logical explanation for the origin for the compass.

If A, then B

does not mean that

If B, then not A

From what we know right now, if there was a logical explanation for the origin of the compass, the compass would not be in a time loop (Ort's explanation would fall in this category). Other explanations for how the compass was created at one point and now is in the time loop have been poor.

That there is no explanation for the origin of the compass does not imply that history has been changing.

tpbaxter

05-13-2009, 10:48 PM

I don't think the compass proves anything yet, as we still do not have enough information about it, but the last few episodes have done a lot to contradict WHH.

The biggest thing to me happened when Richard Alpert said he saw them all die. And then Locke saying that he would save them if he could and that 'we didn't come here for nothing'. There's been a lot of hints lately that the Losties do have a purpose for being in the past and that reason may not be just for the purpose of creating the future we already know. And if all the people die in 1977 it doesn't sound like they'll have much left for a season 6.

but again, I still think that the incident has to occur and flight 815 has to crash. i don't know about everyone dying in 77 though. That and perhaps some other past atrocities might have to be corrected by our heroes?

islander

05-13-2009, 10:49 PM

But this is a faulty argument. You are using a conclusion drawn from a premise to show that the same premise is wrong.

I had said that, because there is not a logical explanation for how the compass had an origin, it is possible that the compass has always been in the time loop and that the compass is symbolic.

Your response is, because the compass is in a time loop and could be symbolic, there is a logical explanation for the origin for the compass.

If A, then B

does not mean that

If B, then not A

From what we know right now, if there was a logical explanation for the origin of the compass, the compass would not be in a time loop (Ort's explanation would fall in this category). Other explanations for how the compass was created at one point and now is in the time loop have been poor.

That there is no explanation for the origin of the compass does not imply that history has been changing.

HUH? It was an observation: there are lots of inconsistencies chipping away at WHH and the compass being in a loop is a big one.

My previous posts have premises based on the actual dialogue supporting the loop and then concluding such a loop proves WHH is toast. Others are proposing off camera events that are pure speculation and guesswork.

thebecoming

05-14-2009, 12:14 AM

HUH? It was an observation: there are lots of inconsistencies chipping away at WHH and the compass being in a loop is a big one.

My previous posts have premises based on the actual dialogue supporting the loop and then concluding such a loop proves WHH is toast. Others are proposing off camera events that are pure speculation and guesswork.

At this point in the show, there are more examples and evidence that show WHH is correct over that which shows WHH is incorrect. That is a separate argument that we can certainly have, but it's been belabored over a thousand other threads now.

The actual dialogue establishes there is likely a time loop going on. Let's assume this is true.

That the compass is in a time loop, however, does not disprove WHH. This goes back to my post:

"I had said that, because there is not a logical explanation for how the compass had an origin, it is possible that the compass has always been in the time loop and that the compass is symbolic.

Your response is, because the compass is in a time loop and could be symbolic, there is a logical explanation for the origin for the compass."

It is faulty logic to say that, if we know the compass is in a time loop, then the past must have been changed. That's not true. As of this moment, assuming a time loop, there has not been a good explanation given for the compass' origin. And if it has no origin, it is likely in a time loop and is symbolic for something along the lines of destiny and of a timeline that is set in stone.

Taking it one step further: this conclusion, that the compass is symbolic, does NOT imply that it is symbolic for time being able to change, for the reasons I outlined in my post.

wiley

05-14-2009, 12:52 AM

I think this loop only proves that Richard is not time jumping. If he was, the compass would be new and shiny like him. The compass has aged, he has not. He has had the compass for 50 years and he has not been jumping time EVER. Therefore he is somehow ageless the compass is not.

Gold Jumpa

05-14-2009, 01:46 AM

Just taking a look at the Star Trek Movie, I get the feeling that Abrams and co. somehow enjoy nonsensical alternate realities and poorly explained time loops. I mean, he had no problem ****ing the audience over there, so I doubt he will stick to WHH.

And, just a shout out, if this is true, then the perhaps the reason (future) Richard Alpert saw all of the castaways die is that because, for him to know Locke, the castaways would have to have failed (ie: shot by Darma or the like).