Jacob-yes I am going to open this can of worms

[wvugurl]

Ok I keep reading how everyone is saying Jacob is good and the anti Jacob is evil...How is this????

Ben claim (I cannot believe I am sticking up for Ben) that he followed every order Richard brought to him from Jacob...Ben did evil things...however, if he was following Jacob, he was doing his job...

If it weren't for Jacob getting Sayids attention Nadia would not have been hit by that car and Jacob knew what was going to happen and not phased by it...

Jacob knew Locke was getting thrown out the window...Not phased...

How are we all assuming Jacob is the good of the island?

It appears all bad that has happened to our Losties was in the hands of Jacob

[3d-aholic]

Interesting....
So you think they are just making us think that and its really flipped.

True enough also that Jacob go all those people to go "back to the island". Remember the taxi ride with Hurley.

Why would he get them to go back and set up a scenario that leads to his death and for smokie to have a dead body.

[TotallyLOST]

Check out my thread about Jacob being Sobek, the Alligator God. Wikipedia's explanation of him really nails Jacob's personality.

[capt'n caveman]

Ok I keep reading how everyone is saying Jacob is good and the anti Jacob is evil...How is this????Ben claim (I cannot believe I am sticking up for Ben) that he followed every order Richard brought to him from Jacob...Ben did evil things...however, if he was following Jacob, he was doing his job...If it weren't for Jacob getting Sayids attention Nadia would not have* been hit by that car and Jacob knew what was going to happen and not phased by it...Jacob knew Locke was getting thrown out the window...Not phased...How are we all assuming Jacob is the good of the island?It appears all bad that has happened to our Losties was in the hands of JacobHmmmm... you make an interesting point!* My head is starting to hurt from all the spinning.....:eek:

[hyperchord24]

What good guy says to a loyal follower "who are you?"

[littleredman]

Check out my thread about Jacob being Sobek, the Alligator God. Wikipedia's explanation of him really nails Jacob's personality.

That's brilliant.

[wvugurl]

well im not so sure..im not sayin..im just sayin...he seems to be the mastermind of the whole show of everyone thing bad that has happened...im thinking we are jumping the gun thinking he is good..and im not saying the smoke monster is good..but im think jacob is no saint

[Camotyger20]

If it weren't for Jacob getting Sayids attention Nadia would not have been hit by that car and Jacob knew what was going to happen and not phased by it...

Ahh but what if his intention was to save Sayid, seems the way the car was going both would have gotten hit if it wasn't for Jacob

[3d-aholic]

When Jacob and "his brother" (anti-jacob) are eating fish on the beach. Jacob is dressed in all white and anti-jacob is dressed in all black. I don't believe that is a coincidence. The writers are telling us very clearly who is good and who is evil. And the evil guy says you know I want to kill you to Jacob....umm...that certainly sounds evil.

However, anti-jacob can take on the form of Locke...so it could just as well have been anti-jacob looking like jacob.

Also, just now remembering Christian is wearing "white" tennis shoes and Locke is wearing "black" shoes at the first crash....not a coincidence I don't believe.

[jlazarus]

When Jacob and "his brother" (anti-jacob) are eating fish on the beach. Jacob is dressed in all white and anti-jacob is dressed in all black. I don't believe that is a coincidence. The writers are telling us very clearly who is good and who is evil. And the evil guy says you know I want to kill you to Jacob....umm...that certainly sounds evil.

However, anti-jacob can take on the form of Locke...so it could just as well have been anti-jacob looking like jacob.

Also, just now remembering Christian is wearing "white" tennis shoes and Locke is wearing "black" shoes at the first crash....not a coincidence I don't believe.

Spot on. Exactly what I think. The Jacob we saw off island was not 'the Jacob' at the beginning. Loophole, right?! And the shoes are a big clue as to who is good/evil, etc...

I am still not totally convinced we are aren't seeing Enlil and Enki......

[lostie108]

Ok I keep reading how everyone is saying Jacob is good and the anti Jacob is evil...How is this????

Ben claim (I cannot believe I am sticking up for Ben) that he followed every order Richard brought to him from Jacob...Ben did evil things...however, if he was following Jacob, he was doing his job...

If it weren't for Jacob getting Sayids attention Nadia would not have been hit by that car and Jacob knew what was going to happen and not phased by it...

Jacob knew Locke was getting thrown out the window...Not phased...

How are we all assuming Jacob is the good of the island?

It appears all bad that has happened to our Losties was in the hands of Jacob

well i would venture a guess and say he is evil . i mean the video that was playing in room 23 where the others kept walt and carl flashed the sentence that said ..... god loves you as he loved jacob. pretty tuff to argue the fact jacob is goo when apparently god doesnt favor him anymore . on a sidenote why would the others take orders from someone who god USED to love . i dont get it .

[coldandevell]

This is still Lost anything is definitely possible.

[hyperchord24]

So what are you saying? That "Jacob" in the flashbacks was really the anti-Jacob in disguise?

[swamp waste]

think the "anti-jacob" might be just the other half of a duality that represents war and and violence. maybe not though. but if they're really opposites they're probably more profoundly and completely opposite than one's entirely good and the other's entirely evil

[whitestar2]

What good guy says to a loyal follower "who are you?" Funny thing about this is this is making me think of Babylon 5-- Vorlons vs the Shadows--the vorlons represent order and the shadows chaos. The shadows believed that progress comes thru conflict and the vorlons thru obedience and following orders. Jacob and his opposite seemed to fit that very well. The line "who are you" was central to the B5 mythos. You have to understand yourself before you can understand the world. Ben and Widmore seemed to be playing out Jacob and the dark man in their one-up-manship games. Question is what exactly is the ultimate prize--perhaps as the Island has shown the ability to live forever and sickness to be prevented/cured. Pretty powerful motivator.

[yojason]

I just dont see why anti Jacob would have to disguise himself to go see the O6 if they never seen the real Jacob before

[Baibe]

Ok I keep reading how everyone is saying Jacob is good and the anti Jacob is evil...How is this????

How are we all assuming Jacob is the good of the island?

It appears all bad that has happened to our Losties was in the hands of Jacob

True enough also that Jacob go all those people to go "back to the island". Remember the taxi ride with Hurley.

But he didn't really get everyone to go back.. when he visited Kate and Sawyer.. they were young.... I was thinking he needed something that may have had some type of impact or emotional attachment in order to connect... but Kate's wasn't like a super big thing like deaths that Jack, Sawyer, Sayid and Locke experienced. Hurley was about him being blessed instead of cursed but tryin to get him to go back to the island and Jin/Sun was the wedding. To me it seems like Jacob was in some way trying to encourage them. He told Jack he needed a push, gave Sayid motivation for revenge, and so on.

[audienceofone]

John fell out of the window and died. Jacob's touch brought him back. Jacob told him he was sorry that this happened to him. Remember, man has free will - bad things happen.

I do believe both Nadia and Sayid would have been creamed by that vehicle but Sayid was needed.

[losttime]

Ok I keep reading how everyone is saying Jacob is good and the anti Jacob is evil...How is this????

Ben claim (I cannot believe I am sticking up for Ben) that he followed every order Richard brought to him from Jacob...Ben did evil things...however, if he was following Jacob, he was doing his job...

If it weren't for Jacob getting Sayids attention Nadia would not have been hit by that car and Jacob knew what was going to happen and not phased by it...

Jacob knew Locke was getting thrown out the window...Not phased...

How are we all assuming Jacob is the good of the island?

It appears all bad that has happened to our Losties was in the hands of Jacob


jacob may know these things had to take place and couldnt interfere with them but would intervene when he could. For example, he knew the car was going to hit sayid and Nadia and waited for them but instead of killing Sayid who he knew he needed he stopped him and asked for directions. Also with Locke, he knew he had to let him become paralyzed so he would find himself on the Island and walk again. not only that but when he walked up to Locke after hewas pushed out the window by his father and put his hand on his shoulder, it appears that Locke was dead and took a new breath of life. I am not saying that is what exactly happend but cvertainly presented that way to me. What was interesting was his interaction with Jack was very subtle to say the least and I am not sure if it was the physical contact was allthat Jacob and Jack needed for things to progress as needed.

[InTheBeginning]

Just a string of thoughts here, no meaning yet...

Jacob visited James. Gave him a pen to finish the angry letter. He's an angry man now.
Jacob visited Katie. Told her not to steal again. I believe she did alot worse than steal.
Jacob visited Sun and Jin. Told them to never leave each other. They did, well not exactly by their own volition, but nevertheless they did.
Jacob visited Jack. I forget what he told him.

Just a few rambling thoughts...

[InTheBeginning]

Read this...
Jacob was the son of Isaac and Rebekah, the brother of Esau, and the grandson of Abraham and Sarah. The stories about Jacob are in the book of Genesis and take place during the Ancestrial Period. Jacob was known for trickery. He came out of the womb grasping his brother Esau's heal. Later he persuaded Esau to sell him his birthright and tricked Isaac into blessing him instead of Esau. Fearing his brother's anger he fled to live with his uncle Laban. On the way he had a dream in which he saw a ladder extending to heaven with angels ascending and descending on it. Jacob married two sisters, Rachel and Leah, and also had two concubines, Bilhah and Zilpah. These four women bore him twelve sons. Jacob became wealthy while working for his uncle Laban. Eventually jealousy among Laban's sons forced Jacob to flee back to Canaan in spite of his fear of Esau. On the way he wrestled an angel all night. In the morning the angel changed Jacob's name to Israel and he became the father of the nation that bears his name. His sons gave their names to the twelve tribes of Israel. Jacob eventually migrated to Egypt to be with his son Joseph, who had been sold there as a slave but later rose to prominence in Pharaoh's court.

So, he 'switched' places with ihs brother? Could the guy on the beach be Esau?

[mnm4334]

Black and White do not always mean good and evil. Try not to limit yourself with such a narrow viewpoint. It would be nice if everything was so cut and dry but we have to deal with writer misdirection and trying to avoid generalizing. Jacob is not good, good men do not accept things the way they are, they try and change them. Jacob is obviously mortal, and he is shown to have no compassion for his followers and takes no responsibility for things done in his name. Jacob also lured people to the island knowing full well that death and war awaited them, Jacob is by no means good, and appears to be far more malevolent than smokie.

Now here is where it gets interesting. Jacob resides in the statue, so why did Illana seem troubled when she went to the cabin. I believe that Jacob imprisoned his counterpart, however over a long period of time he managed to find a way out, ie as smokie, and a way to communicate, ie through the cabin. If Jacob is dead, and I would bet killing him in any time disrupts the entire string, Jacob saying help me to Illana and John Locke seems rather troubling however I am not fully convinced that Jacob isnt both men. The fact that we are not given his name is bothersome but think of it as a two sides of the same coin deal. I think desmonds words ring the most true so far, these people are just playing some sort of game and Jacob included, shows no remorse or compassion for anyone hurt in the process.

Why is John Locke so special? Why couldnt smokie use christain shepard to kill Jacob? The only logic here is that it needed to be a leader so that the others would not try and stop him.

Smokie-Spirit of vengeance. Smokie can take the form of dead folks we know that, most of the time he does so in order to punish. It appears that Jacob was responsible for John Locke being paralized. Jacob didnt let his suffering end but instead kept him alive to suffer on. Jacob's minions brought locke to the island where he was healed, but left to wander aimlessly on running on blind faith that he was meant for something. John tried to do what he thought the island wanted but was tested, decieved, and manipulated by Jacob's minions. Locke suffering again, is sent off the island to retrieve the 06ers and fails. He is then murdered by Ben and all this man has to show for his long miserable life is a bunch of people who hate him and the only people that show up at his funeral are those who tried to kill him.

If I was Locke, I would have been righteously pissed off. It would also seem that Smokie is omnicient. He apparently has all of the memories of the forms he takes, evidenced by his appearance as Yemi, Alex, and now JL.

Bomb vs jacob death. If anything changes we are still left with the pivotal question of science vs faith. Jacob like Richard appears to exist beyond time, which leads me to believe that killing Jacob in the present may also remove him from the past. So we are left with the question is the bomb responsible for the final seasons events or is Jacobs death responsible.

Also, Juliette could very well still be alive. Didnt get a rewatch yet, but It was a FLASH. Not a Boom. Desmond survived a very similar point blank event, the only difference is that Julie may die from the fall, which would make me tragically upset. Juliette and Sawyer was the only really interesting thing going on besides John Locke in current time, and she is so much more interesting than Kate, I hope she realized that Sawyer had no intention of leaving her, and that he truly loved her, she helped Sawyer in a way Kate never could, and with her death it makes any relationship with Kate in season 6 highly unlikely. If I was Sawyer I would have jumped in after her, because hell, without Juliette whats the point, and at least she wouldn't die alone.

So, Who is JL? Why did the writers choose to off Juliette when nobody likes Kate? How is time going to be affected in 6? What is the purpose of charlies guitar? When will we be? Where did Shadow people come from?

I have really lost interest though at this point. My favorite characters are dead or a disappointment. Desmond MIA, Locke Dead, Juliette presumed Dead, Sawyer might as well be dead without Juliette, Richard disappointment for such an old dude hes not very bright.

[InTheBeginning]

Jacob is not good, good men do not accept things the way they are, they try and change them.
That's what I was alluding to above with the Jacob bio.


Now here is where it gets interesting. Jacob resides in the statue, so why did Illana seem troubled when she went to the cabin. I believe that Jacob imprisoned his counterpart, however over a long period of time he managed to find a way out,
It looked to me like someone dragged their foot across the ashes to create a path for Esau to get out.


Also, Juliette could very well still be alive. Didnt get a rewatch yet, but It was a FLASH. Not a Boom. Desmond survived a very similar point blank event,
Not to make light of your excellent post, but does this mean we gert to see Juliet run out of the jungle naked next season?:)

[etfrompo]

Not to make light of your excellent post, but does this mean we get to see Juliet run out of the jungle naked next season?:)

Probly depends on the ratings at the start of season 6. If they want to jump start the numbers, you will see it.:D

[bunnydixon]

It looked to me like someone dragged their foot across the ashes to create a path for Esau to get out.




or for someone to get in?

but yeah - maybe whoever is lockealike now is the guy who asked for help. maybe john IS helping him by dying and letting him use his body or he created the break in the ash.

after all - it would appear to be this person who told locke to turn the wheel not jacob?

[Losterella]

Ok I keep reading how everyone is saying Jacob is good and the anti Jacob is evil...How is this????

Ben claim (I cannot believe I am sticking up for Ben) that he followed every order Richard brought to him from Jacob...Ben did evil things...however, if he was following Jacob, he was doing his job...

If it weren't for Jacob getting Sayids attention Nadia would not have been hit by that car and Jacob knew what was going to happen and not phased by it...

Jacob knew Locke was getting thrown out the window...Not phased...

How are we all assuming Jacob is the good of the island?

It appears all bad that has happened to our Losties was in the hands of Jacob

Thank you for having the courage to open that can! I am leaning towards the Jacob/ Esau biblical reference and I also think Jacob is not "good". Jacob is self-serving. Perhaps the whole white shirt thing is just to throw us off.

[I'mnotlost]

I don't believe it was Jacob touching the losties in the past, it was Esau(?), disguised as jacob!! why would he want sawyer, an 8yr old boy to write that angry letter or kill Nadia?

I think the Others were followers of Esau(other guy), but told that Jacob was the man! I think(speculating) thats what Richard wanted , because he helped trap Jacob in the foot of the statue n claimed the guy in the cabin was jacob! Richard being full of hatred & rage towards Jacob,wanted revenge on him for making him immortal("i am this way because of Jacob")!! wow this is out there!! maybe though. more later

[Faraday'sGal]

I think the OP's post is definitely something to think about. I started thinking about how Lucifer was God's favorite angel, and his name literally means something like "bright light", right? So white doesn't necessarily mean good. Just a passing thought, haha, back to lurking!

[TotallyLOST]

I'm just totally throwing this out there. On other thread's they've mentioned how Darlton said in the podcast that Jacob would be 60 foot tall and on fire. And he did end up being within a statue that was originally that big, and he was on fire. So they were leading us to it without really saying it straight. I listened to the podcast again and they went through the names of different characters to say if they were good, bad, or undecided. Even though they were sarcastic about the 60 foot flaming Jacob, they did say he was good. Any thoughts? Were they throwing us the proverbial fish biscuit??

[kirockk]

I'm just totally throwing this out there. On other thread's they've mentioned how Darlton said in the podcast that Jacob would be 60 foot tall and on fire. And he did end up being within a statue that was originally that big, and he was on fire. So they were leading us to it without really saying it straight. I listened to the podcast again and they went through the names of different characters to say if they were good, bad, or undecided. Even though they were sarcastic about the 60 foot flaming Jacob, they did say he was good. Any thoughts? Were they throwing us the proverbial fish biscuit??

Everyone still seems to get hung up on one aspect or another and forgets about all the other ramifications. For one, look up Sobek the crocodile god, The giant statue that Jacob lives under. Sobek was an ambiguous god that wasn't all that well defined. But one of his functions was to FIX the effects of evil. He was not considered a force for Good OR evil, just a force of nature. In strategy games one must sacrifice pieces in order to win. This does not mean that it's evil but a means to complete the task. If Jacob is reseting time and evils, any evil he might commit himself could be wiped clean by that action. The result could be a clean start for all.

[TotallyLOST]

Everyone still seems to get hung up on one aspect or another and forgets about all the other ramifications. For one, look up Sobek the crocodile god, The giant statue that Jacob lives under. Sobek was an ambiguous god that wasn't all that well defined. But one of his functions was to FIX the effects of evil. He was not considered a force for Good OR evil, just a force of nature. In strategy games one must sacrifice pieces in order to win. This does not mean that it's evil but a means to complete the task. If Jacob is reseting time and evils, any evil he might commit himself could be wiped clean by that action. The result could be a clean start for all.

Kirockk, I'm totally with you. Look at the thread about Sobek... I started it. I'm just saying that this could be another thing to consider.

http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9330

[rock-lobster]

..im not sayin..im just sayin...

Paradox! :eek:

[Goobersmooch525]

Just a string of thoughts here, no meaning yet...

Jacob visited James. Gave him a pen to finish the angry letter. He's an angry man now.
Jacob visited Katie. Told her not to steal again. I believe she did alot worse than steal.
Jacob visited Sun and Jin. Told them to never leave each other. They did, well not exactly by their own volition, but nevertheless they did.
Jacob visited Jack. I forget what he told him.

Just a few rambling thoughts...

Guys your not getting it! Everything he told the losties was to bring them back to the island to help him!

Kate don't steal what's not yours...... she went back to island to find aaron's mom

Sun went back to the island because of the ring and the guy telling them to remember Jin's vows, "We will never be apart"

Jack was to push (The bomb to the other losties)
Hurly talks to the dead friends so he is blessed because he can communicate for them. (In fact Miles and Hurley are spirtiual brothers and that is why they have so many in depth conversations with each other.)

Sawyer was to hold onto his anger by using Jacob's pen so he could get to the island when it crashed. (Since he never left the island he only needed to be convinced how to get there.)

Locke was brought back to life by Jacob just as Sayid was saved by Jacob because it wasn't their time to die yet. Jacob needed them to come to the island.


(All of the visits from Jacob were to bring the Losties to the island when they are needed the most.)

[MsMae]

I couldn't help thinking that Jacob might bea Roman or Greek diety. Remember the old argonaut movies, where the gods would look down at Earth and plan a little mischief? Maybe that is what Jacob does - creates mischief/havoc among the humans to entertain the gods

[losttime]

It looked to me like someone dragged their foot across the ashes to create a path for Esau to get out
:)

I forgot to mention that. I noticed that too that the ash ring around the Cabin was not intact and so the seal holding somethign in or out was no longer a factor.

[Jelena]

Why did the writers choose to off Juliette when nobody likes Kate?


This is sooo not true. There's at least one person in the world who prefers Kate over Juliette, and that's me. I never liked the character of Juliette, she always looked so sleazy to me. She never really says what she means, she changes sides a lot, and rarely shows emotions. She really gets on my nerves. She and Sawyer were never really a good couple - couldn't feel the chemistry, whereas the sparks were always flying between James and Kate.
I was however, sad to see Juliette and Sawyer go through those feelings while she was being pulled by the magnetic force.
And that's that. ;)

[TheNagual]

This is sooo not true. There's at least one person in the world who prefers Kate over Juliette, and that's me. I never liked the character of Juliette, she always looked so sleazy to me. She never really says what she means, she changes sides a lot, and rarely shows emotions. She really gets on my nerves. She and Sawyer were never really a good couple - couldn't feel the chemistry, whereas the sparks were always flying between James and Kate.
I was however, sad to see Juliette and Sawyer go through those feelings while she was being pulled by the magnetic force.
And that's that. ;)
I love Kate.
She s hot.
Juliette, calculated and cold.

[mekan]

I think it is a mistake to look at Jacob and Anti-Jacob as good and evil. They are simply opposites, yin and yang. One beleives in free will and one does not. One believes in progress to completion and one believes in simple repetition of fighting. Now we can attribute good and evil to these beliefs. I think the belief in free will is good and the opposite belief to be bad. We are seeing the battle of two philosophies played out in a game on the island.

Jacob brings people to the island. We know this from the scene with the Black Rock. He does this to advance his position to what another thread is calling the Omega Point. Anti-Jacob sees this as folly and may well consider Jacob as evil for continually attempting to bring people to the island to die. Anti-jacob sees no point in the exercise.

Again, Jacob and Anti-Jacob are simply two sides of a coin.

[lilsev42]

I've been thinking the same things about our beloved Jacob,I keep going back to what he said at the first of the episode about humans and that no matter what it's progress,with that being said for all the bad he has done it makes it out to us that he is not good,but he said it could only happen once before he said the rest is progress,he knows that it happens many times when you incluude time travel,but I still have my doubts about who is evil and good between Jacob and his fellow companion.

[INDIGO78]

Ahh but what if his intention was to save Sayid, seems the way the car was going both would have gotten hit if it wasn't for Jacob

I completely agree with you it was sayid he needed. Plus Sayid would never have left his wife and go back to the island if she were still alive

[Commanderzoom]

I love Kate.
She s hot.
Juliette, calculated and cold.

Kate is so not hot. She has the body of a little boy and the brainpower of a chicken. Juliette, on the other hand, has a smokin' bod AND brainpower. She's the ultimate woman.

BTW, hi! I'm sort of new here. I've been lurking here but probably won't post much because I don't want to get sucked into another message board. I love reading all the theories.

[Lost in Lost]

But he didn't really get everyone to go back.. when he visited Kate and Sawyer.. they were young.... I was thinking he needed something that may have had some type of impact or emotional attachment in order to connect... but Kate's wasn't like a super big thing like deaths that Jack, Sawyer, Sayid and Locke experienced. Hurley was about him being blessed instead of cursed but tryin to get him to go back to the island and Jin/Sun was the wedding. To me it seems like Jacob was in some way trying to encourage them. He told Jack he needed a push, gave Sayid motivation for revenge, and so on.

It's highly likely that Jacob visted them various times throughout their lives, but the writers have just not shown it yet.

[Camotyger20]

When Jacob and "his brother" (anti-jacob) are eating fish on the beach. Jacob is dressed in all white and anti-jacob is dressed in all black. I don't believe that is a coincidence. The writers are telling us very clearly who is good and who is evil. And the evil guy says you know I want to kill you to Jacob....umm...that certainly sounds evil.

However, anti-jacob can take on the form of Locke...so it could just as well have been anti-jacob looking like jacob.

Also, just now remembering Christian is wearing "white" tennis shoes and Locke is wearing "black" shoes at the first crash....not a coincidence I don't believe.

It's all one big backgammon game

[crocks21]

Well, finally I have found a thread that is along the lines of what I’ve been thinking.

I’m referring to post #21 by IntheBeginning “On the way he had a dream in which he saw a ladder extending to heaven with angels ascending and descending on it.” And #22 mnm4334. “Smokie can take the form of dead folks”.

Here’s my take on it all. I agree that Jacob is the son of Isaac, son of Abraham from Genesis of the Old Testament and to quote a verse from Chapter 28 verse 16, “And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.
17And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! This is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”

What the two characters are wearing in the season finale is also a clue. Ancient Assyrian, Canaanite or Babylonian, check out the groovy sandals and the rope around the waist. Either I’m right or this is the latest fashion beach-wear from Prague.

This “gate of heaven” ties in with the hieroglyphics on the cornerstone of the temple “the path to heaven”, which I don’t necessarily believe is via the temple.

I agree with the analogy of the light and dark theme, which could also mean good and evil and the Backgammon metaphor.

The reference to Jacob’s “ladder” is definitely a key thread in Lost. Google “Jacob’s Ladder” and you’ll find a movie with the same title from 1990, which remotely touches on a similar theme of Redemption and a stairway to heaven.

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob’s_Ladder for some very interesting reading.

Jacob’s ladder has also been likened to the structure of DNA. The Old Testament, also known as the Torah, is in part the history of Judaism as we know it, but it is also a genealogical record of the descendants from Adam, Abraham, Isaac, (you guessed it) Jacob and ultimately to Jesus the Messiah. The crux of Judeo-Christian belief is that Jesus was and is God incarnate and was and is the redemption of all mankind.

This is also a thread in Lost. See the references to scripture engraved on Mr Ecko’s staff: “Lift up your eyes and look north John 3:05”. The Gospel of John 3:05 says: Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Also, Acts 4:12 “Salvation is found in no-one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Could also be Acts 4:2 as it’s a little unclear, but also talks about the resurrection of the dead through Jesus. And Romans 6:12 or 5:12 but equally Chapter 5 & 6 talk about the redemption of man from sin/death (through Adam) and the gift of eternal life (through Jesus) aka son of man.

Jesus is also known as the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. The Omega Point as someone highlighted in another post is the end point or the apocalypse. Jacob says, “if it only ends once, everything else is just progress.”

For some this maybe way out left-field but, if Jacob is who I think he is, we are only looking at one link in the possibly infinite chain of events that could occur in the scheme of things.

If Mr Dark-Tunic is Esau this would also explain why he wants to kill Jacob. As Jacob “tricked” his way into getting the “first-born blessing” as mentioned by InTheBeginning. Read Genesis 27:41 “And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.”

Let’s assume Smokey is Anubis is The Serpent is Satan is the Deceiver is the Evil one. Ever since before Adam & Eve, Satan was a created being, and the angel that became arrogant, envied God and rebelled, and as a result was cast out of Heaven. See Ezekiel 28:17 and Luke 10:18 he (Jesus) said unto them, “I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven”. Satan or the Serpent deceived Adam & Eve and they “chose” to sin, however you want to see it. Ultimately, that day they lost their innocence and gave over their authority as the keepers of Eden to the Serpent.

The Serpent/Smokey is the deceiver – dark. That has played out clearly in each instance we see him in Lost. He can only impersonate people who arrive dead or who die on the island eg. Yemi, Christian, Boon, Alex, Locke. I think if Smokey cannot deceive the losties for his purposes, or his plans are at risk of being exposed, he makes the kill or retreats. In S3E05 Ecko drinks from the stream, Smokey hovers over him, Locke and Sayid approach on the other bank and Smokey runs away.

See the dialog (S3E05) between Yemi and Ecko with smokey lurking in the bushes. It’s not the Yemi that Ecko knows, a smiling, friendly, forgiving brother. Smokey is trying to deceive Ecko for his purposes, but Ecko knows the truth, he says “I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless, and with it I did my best.” (Crucifix also symbolic here) To which Yemi replies, “You speak to me as if I were your brother.” Ecko know’s it’s not Yemi. “Who are you?” Now Smokey has no use for Ecko and cannot risk his plan being foiled, so then kills him. Ecko prays, “The Lord is my Shepherd…”

When Sayid shoots young Ben, and Kate and Sawyer take him to the others (S5E11) Richard says, “if I take him, he’s not ever gonna be the same again… He’ll forget this ever happened and his innocence will be gone, he will always be one of us.” And then takes him into the temple – Smokey’s house.

From then on Ben “belongs” to Smokey and is used for his purposes. Ultimately to kill Jacob as played out in the finale of S5.

Ben really should have died from the tumour. But Jack operated on him and became an element in the loophole (S3E06). This is confirmed when Danny, on his way to kill Sawyer, says, “Shephard wasn’t on Jacob’s list”.

If Ben is the leader of the others this would mean the others have some kind of distorted, indirect relationship with Jacob but predominantly “influenced” by Smokey.

A Smokey-possessed Locke tells Richard to tell the real Locke that He’s gonna have to die << Rewind to Locke leaves the Island, Ben get’s leader envy and kills Locke. Locke comes back to the island dead, Smokey inhabits dead Locke, Ben is amazed, Smokey-possessed Locke leads Ben to the temple, Smokey deceives Ben by impersonating Alex who says, “You will listen to every word John Locke says and you will follow his every order.” (S5E12) And hey presto, Ben kills Jacob. Loophole exploited.

What lies beneath the statue? He, who can save us all.

What I think is playing out in Lost is the battle between light and dark over the impending redemption of mankind. Are Jacob & Esau like us all, just pawns in the game or victims of chance? Does everything happening for a reason?

Let’s say in the Judeo-Christian genealogy scheme of things, if Jacob dies at this point, at the gateway to heaven (Genesis Chapter 28) because chronologically he isn’t married yet (Genesis 29), that means his 12 sons (aka 12 tribes of Israel) and subsequent innumerable descendants won’t ever exist, which includes Jesus and all of us, and therefore God’s master plan to redeem mankind is destroyed.

This would be confirmed when Eloise says to Desmond, when he’s buying his engagement ring, “…until you are forced to turn that failsafe key. And if you don’t do those things Desmond David Hume, every single one of us is dead! So give me that sodding ring!” (S3E12)

I think the island is the gateway to heaven, Jacob’s ladder or a dimension of heaven where this spiritual battle of Backgammon plays out both in and out of the space-time continuum.

As for Esau, his descendants begin with Ishmael. See Genesis 17:20 “And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. 21But my covenant (an everlasting covenant for his descendants) will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.”

Esau marries Ishmael’s daughter, Mahalath. And from their descendants we get all the Bedouin, Palestinian and Persian tribes of the Middle East. And still the strife between Israel and Palestine continues. But, now I digress.

Like any other post, it’s my theory and it might very well be incorrect. But like Jacob said, “I have a choice” so I choose to post and believe my theory as correct until proven otherwise, at which time I could still choose to believe my theory. But then again, maybe I am ‘supposed’ to believe my theory. I’m confused now. ;-)

Ah, free will. Isn’t it great?

[notsolost42]

With all due respect to your theory, if you are saying the island is the gateway to heaven then are you also saying that they are in purgatory? If so, it has been stated by the producers, quite explicitly in fact, that it is not purgatory in an ABC News interview for Nightline. Here is a link to the interview. It is from October 2006 but still remains interesting and valid to this day.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Story?id=2553741&page=1

[crocks21]

[QUOTE=notsolost42;238135]With all due respect to your theory, if you are saying the island is the gateway to heaven then are you also saying that they are in purgatory?
QUOTE]

No I am not saying that the island is purgatory. Purgatory is the condition or process of purification in which the souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for heaven, according to catholic belief. The word "purgatory" has come to refer also to a wide range of historical and modern conceptions of postmortem suffering short of everlasting damnation.

Our losties aren't dead. Except the ones who are dead. because in the words of Ben, "Dead is dead".

Jacobs ladder was not purgatory. To quote Genesis 28 "And he (Jacob) dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven; and behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it! And behold, the Lord stood above it..."

I think moreso it was a place where there was heightened spiritual or supernatural phenomenon occuring.

Cheers.

[mnm4334]

see i always felt that the writers attempts to emphasize the fact that jack wasn't supposed to be there as a play on the fact that he was supposed to die in the pilot. However what if that is just the endgame of the show. Jack was supposed to die in the crash but because he didnt, he becomes a variable.

[Doriandan]

perhaps anti Jacob is ....

Jacob's FATHER! That would totally tie in everyone else's father problems that are paramount in their lives.

Jacob's dad may wish to kill him because HE broke the "rules"

Anything is possible and none of us are "right." The writers probually frequent these forums to get an idea of what we "think." Swerveball

[losttime]

Thank you for having the courage to open that can! I am leaning towards the Jacob/ Esau biblical reference and I also think Jacob is not "good". Jacob is self-serving. Perhaps the whole white shirt thing is just to throw us off.

NOOO. Really? You think TPTB would do something like that to us? Cant be so.

[yokogleeton]

perhaps anti Jacob is ....

Jacob's FATHER! That would totally tie in everyone else's father problems that are paramount in their lives.

Jacob's dad may wish to kill him because HE broke the "rules"

Anything is possible and none of us are "right." The writers probually frequent these forums to get an idea of what we "think." Swerveball

that sure would play into all the daddy issues everyone has.

good thinking.

[Lost Down Under]

Again, Jacob and Anti-Jacob are simply two sides of a coin.

Kinda like John and Jack.

[abcd1234]

how do we know all the thingas hat jacob ordered were really jacob's orders? this other player could have manipulated people under the guise of jacob. plus good and evil are titles we as viewers are adding to the show that arent really there.

[chester]

perhaps anti Jacob is ....

Jacob's FATHER! That would totally tie in everyone else's father problems that are paramount in their lives.

Jacob's dad may wish to kill him because HE broke the "rules"

Anything is possible and none of us are "right." The writers probually frequent these forums to get an idea of what we "think." Swerveball

Hello there Doriandan. Five tons of flax to you. And good call.

This kind of goes along with the suggestion that these two characters might represent the different attitudes that come with age in our society. The old have the power and want to keep it, the young covet the power and seek change. The ones with the power make the rules, which the ones without it, inevitably break....

[georgebushisaretard]

Here's my two-cents' worth regarding the good/evil, black/white, chaos/order debate. Could the two on the beach actually be...

Apollo and Dionysus? Greek gods that could pre-date the Egyptian stuff (at the bottom of Jacob's mural there are what looks to be Greek letters), also throughout Lost there is the constant food/drink connection (Apollo chocolate bars/McCutcheon Whiskey).

Hopefully, by next May, we'll all be deliriously happy with the show's final resolutions and laughing at our crazy guesswork over the last few years and not shaking our heads in frustration at a cop-out ending!

[JfromtheD]

!

People often like to come up with nicknames, for posters, here...

Would you prefer George, or Retard? :confused: