My Theory on What Happened, Happened...or Maybe It Didn't

[BomberDawg95]

So, here's how I think it all went down...

As we saw in this evening's episode, several things have been changed from the original storyline, but first, lets examine the original storyline that got everyone here.

The Incident happened, what happened, happened. Like it had happened before, the bomb was brought to the Swan, however, in the original storyline, the bomb did not go off. Maybe Juliet lacked the courage or strength to set it off. Maybe the fall killed her. Either way, what happened, happened. However, things took place in such a way this time around that the fall did NOT kill Juliet.

I think many of you were correct about the Jughead warhead being the failsafe. Dharma discovered it undetonated, and were unwilling to detonate it. So they made it a fail safe, should the worst happen. This time, however, Juliet triggers the bomb, imploding the Swan and changing the storyline forever. To the point, I believe, that everyone from 2007, in 1977, will end up back in their proper time.

Why do I think things have changed?

Dr. Cheng did not lose his arm, as he would have if Miles had not been there or willing to save him. He would've lost his left arm, mind you, the one he didn't move in the Swan Orientation film. It is in this minor detail that we see the truth of where the writers are heading.

We are entering a new storyline. The 815 Survivors and Miles will enter a new future in 2007. What it will entail? Who knows, that part is as unknown as everyone's ultimate fate. However, we will see that the collective efforts of the survivors has changed the ultimate fate of the Island.

As Jacob says at the beginning of the episode: "There is only one ultimate ending. Everything up to that point is progress."

[LissaMarie]

Very interesting and articulate idea, Bomber! That is exactly what I think is happening as well (with the exception of WHH).

I still want to ponder that quote of Jacob's for awhile though. It can be interpreted in opposing ways so I need to chew on it a bit longer!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

[3d-aholic]

Correct...all except the whatever happened happened part. That just got blown out of the water. You now have two separate time lines of "whatever happened happened." You get to pick which ever one you want to happen.

[initiative]

brilliant, because people are the variables and Juliet made a choice.

[LissaMarie]

Didn't Jacob say something about creating a thread?

[BomberDawg95]

Correct...all except the whatever happened happened part. That just got blown out of the water. You now have two separate time lines of "whatever happened happened." You get to pick which ever one you want to happen.

Not at all. Whatever happened, happened. There is no changing it. The only difference, is choice.

Like Ben and Juliet tonight. Ben had a choice, as Jacob told him. Likewise, Juliet had a choice. Both of them made their choices. Whether or not they conflict with whatever happened is irrelevant, because whatever happened, happened.



I find it enlightening, but confusing isn't it? :confused::confused:

[LissaMarie]

The choice changes what happened. It isn't repeating history at all. It's changing history.

[3d-aholic]

There are 2 separate happenings for 1977...so which "whatever" do you think really happened or are you saying happened?

There are actually an infinite # of WHH time threads which means using that to define time is meaningless.

[notsolost42]

I have to completly disagree here. Chang will lose his arm...didn't you see it get caught in the heavy metal scaffolding? Didn't you see he was all bloodied? And the bomb always did go off. That is why they put quarantine on the hatches, took the injections most likely for radiation sickness, and wore hazmat suits. It also explains the fertility issues and the cancer cure and cause problems. I absolutly do not see what you are looking at one bit! The incident always happened and it did this time however, the losties flashed out of there and will likely be the thing that Jacob was talking about with his last dying breath....."they're coming" or something like that....

[lostie108]

The choice changes what happened. It isn't repeating history at all. It's changing history.

definately the choice changes what happened but time always course corrects itself right ? so if :confused:

[LissaMarie]

Hmmmm. I thought Chang described the Incident as being caused by drilling into the pocket of electro-magnetic energy. My guess is that the bomb didn't go off the first time. Perhaps Jughead continued to leak and that is why they had pregnancy issues, hazmat suits, etc. Sucks we have to wait until next winter to get more answers! Grrrr!!

[lostie108]

I have to completly disagree here. Chang will lose his arm...didn't you see it get caught in the heavy metal scaffolding? Didn't you see he was all bloodied? And the bomb always did go off. That is why they put quarantine on the hatches, took the injections most likely for radiation sickness, and wore hazmat suits. It also explains the fertility issues and the cancer cure and cause problems. I absolutly do not see what you are looking at one bit! The incident always happened and it did this time however, the losties flashed out of there and will likely be the thing that Jacob was talking about with his last dying breath....."they're coming" or something like that....i agree i think cheng will still lose his arm . i mean the bomb always gets detonated just in a different way. time course corrects itself as told to desmond by eloise and is also proven by charlie dying . considering he could have died earlier . what do you think notso am i on the right path .

[LissaMarie]

definately the choice changes what happened but time always course corrects itself right ? so if :confused:

See, I don't know about that. My thinking is that it isn't time that course corrects but rather the island. I'm thinking that the island would course correct if it didn't fit its agenda. That's my current thought. I may change my mind a million times over the next 8 flippin' months though!:p

[notsolost42]

Hmmmm. I thought Chang described the Incident as being caused by drilling into the pocket of electro-magnetic energy. My guess is that the bomb didn't go off the first time. Perhaps Jughead continued to leak and that is why they had pregnancy issues, hazmat suits, etc. Sucks we have to wait until next winter to get more answers! Grrrr!!

Oh, that went off alright. I have no doubt in my mind about that. And it caused all those issues. And Chang lost his arm from it all. What we saw was the flash from the EM and there will be a time flash....opening scene episode one season 6, the losties are all still on the island but it is probably 2007 and they have now come to help fight the battle for Jacob against JL.

[lostie108]

definately the choice changes what happened but time always course corrects itself right ? so if :confused:

sorry didnt finish thought if juliet didnt set it off then the swan would have imploded later on and the same would have happened . yes or no . as i said earlier i think this was kinda confirmed by what eloise told dez when he went to buy the ring all that stuff about time course correcting itself .

[notsolost42]

i agree i think cheng will still lose his arm . i mean the bomb always gets detonated just in a different way. time course corrects itself as told to desmond by eloise and is also proven by charlie dying . considering he could have died earlier . what do you think notso am i on the right path .

You seem to have it! It always happened! Sheesh....you'd think the WHHer's would be dancing about now! Hahaha!!!! But that always was in the past....the incident always happened....the losties were living their present/futures and they will time shift but remain on the island because they always crashed there. This is really about the battle between good and evil on a cosmic level.

[LissaMarie]

Oh, that went off alright. I have no doubt in my mind about that. And it caused all those issues. And Chang lost his arm from it all. What we saw was the flash from the EM and there will be a time flash....opening scene episode one season 6, the losties are all still on the island but it is probably 2007 and they have now come to help fight the battle for Jacob against JL.

I agree with everything you said, except for the bomb going off the first time thing. It seems like so long since I've agreed with you, Nots, and I've missed it!!:D

I agree that I think Chang will probably still lose his arm and they will "bloop" to fight the war with the rest of the crew.

[lostie108]

See, I don't know about that. My thinking is that it isn't time that course corrects but rather the island. I'm thinking that the island would course correct if it didn't fit its agenda. That's my current thought. I may change my mind a million times over the next 8 flippin' months though!:p

you and me both as far as changing my mind goes . who knows though , you could be right . but if my theory is correct than does that mean no hatch ever built and the purge doesnt happen and then the plane doesnt crash . so i would have to say it was a flash as notso pointed out so what does that mean . lets see what notso thinks.

[notsolost42]

I agree with everything you said, except for the bomb going off the first time thing. It seems like so long since I've agreed with you, Nots, and I've missed it!!:D

I agree that I think Chang will probably still lose his arm and they will "bloop" to fight the war with the rest of the crew.

The bomb always went off Lis....you don't have to agree but it did.:D

[LissaMarie]

The bomb always went off Lis....you don't have to agree but it did.:D

Wish I had your crystal ball, Nots!:p

I don't agree but I still luv ya!

[notsolost42]

Wish I had your crystal ball, Nots!:p

I don't agree but I still luv ya!

Geezzz....I thought you were a WHHer, and you should be dancing the jig right now!!! lol!!!! It always happened that way. You cannot change the past and the incident is the past. I don't have a crystal ball, I have books...much better! lol!

[LissaMarie]

Geezzz....I thought you were a WHHer, and you should be dancing the jig right now!!! lol!!!! It always happened that way. You cannot change the past and the incident is the past. I don't have a crystal ball, I have books...much better! lol!

I am an anti-WHHer. Sorry sistah! I believe you can change the past! Just when I was reminiscing about how great it was to agree with you!!:(

I think it's really a personal choice for me. I can't stand the notion of not being able to assert free will to direct your course. That is why I literally stood up and cheered when Daniel was giving his speech by the river about free will and variables. That is what I believe. What he said!:D

[Camotyger20]

See, I don't know about that. My thinking is that it isn't time that course corrects but rather the island.

Ahhh, but when Desmond is speaking to Eloise outside on the street and the man with the red shoes dies, she tells him there isn't anyway to change what happens, if we saved him today he'd just get hit by a car tomorrow. This all took place off the island so it is time itself that course corrects.

Juliet always blew the core, this is where they get the idea of the failsafe, why else split Jughead up into two pieces. However there is no way for anyone at the surface of the drillhole to know if Juliet was the one that triggered the bomb, for all they know it was trigger by something else, maybe a piece of debris fell on it. For all they know they succeeded.

Maybe it worked and cancelled out the electromagnetism long enough to finish building the Swan. Then the built up energy is release from that point on in safe amounts by the button, realizing there is a way to cancel it out they bring Jughead, to use it as the failsafe. Pour concrete all over it...."Like Chernobyl" because the leaky radiation.

[LissaMarie]

Ahhh, but when Desmond is speaking to Eloise outside on the street and the man with the red shoes dies, she tells him there isn't anyway to change what happens, if we saved him today he'd just get hit by a car tomorrow. This all took place off the island so it is time itself that course corrects.

Juliet always blew the core, this is where they get the idea of the failsafe, why else split Jughead up into two pieces.

Maybe it worked and cancelled out the electromagnetism long enough to finish building the Swan. Then the built up energy is release from that point on in safe aounts by the button, realizing there is a way to cancel it out they bring Jughead, to use it as the failsafe. Pour concrete all over it...."Like Chernobyl" because the leaky radiation.

I think the theories that apply off island aren't necessarily the same as on island. The island was able to stop Michael from shooting himself though so it seems to work in reverse.

Also, I'm not sure what Eloise's agenda is. The verdict is still out on her, in my book anyway. She's a shady character!

[Camotyger20]

I can't stand the notion of not being able to assert free will to direct your course. That is why I literally stood up and cheered when Daniel was giving his speech by the river about free will and variables. That is what I believe. What he said!:D

But it is that same free will that lead to the decisions you make that will create the future, you can't change who you are, your values, character, etc all lead to those decisions, that you freely made.

Jack is the hero, or atleast acts like it, exploding the core was just him being the hero, it's what he does, it was his choice all along... the same choice he made and will always make, because he will always try to change the future, but will only succeed in creating the same future he came from.

[LissaMarie]

But it is that same free will that lead to the decisions you make that will create the future, you can't change who you are, your values, character, etc all lead to those decisions, that you freely made.

Jack is the hero, or atleast acts like it, exploding the core was just him being the hero, it's what he does, it was his choice all along... the same choice he made and will always make, because he will always try to change the future, but will only succeed in creating the same future he came from.

I disagree, Cam. I think you constantly change who you are, your values and character. I am constantly evolving as my life experiences give me new wisdom and insight that I never had before. But I do agree that free will does lead to decisions that each of us make in life. Jack has changed too in much the same way. His past has changed who he is in the "present" (actually 77). He was following Daniel's agenda on faith. The last time he had the choice to follow someone's agenda on faith, he made a different choice (Locke). He learned through negative personal experiences to make a different choice.

[Camotyger20]

I think the theories that apply off island aren't necessarily the same as on island. The island was able to stop Michael from shooting himself though so it seems to work in reverse.

But Michael tried to shoot himself off the island in the alley. He couldn't kill himself because he was supposed to die near or on the island. The deal was made that allowed Michael to leave the island, thus changing time, it had to course correct to get him back. I do believe it is location specific though. The red shoes man was hit by falling debris while walking on the sidewalk by the street, the next day he would have gotten hit by a car Ellie said, I believe in the same general area of the street.

I guess I believe Elle is just trying to make sure things play out the way they are supposed to, she's the timecop. She makes difficult decisions to keep time on track, even sacrificing her son. She did crap her britches though in the same Episode mentioned above when Desmond was going to take the ring and marry Penny, obviously Desmond was about to change something and she had to set it back on course.

[LissaMarie]

But Michael tried to shoot himself off the island in the alley. He couldn't kill himself because he was supposed to die near or on the island. The deal was made that allowed Michael to leave the island, thus changing time, it had to course correct to get him back. I do believe it is location specific though. The red shoes man was hit by falling debris while walking on the sidewalk by the street, the next day he would have gotten hit by a car Ellie said, I believe in the same general area of the street.

I guess I believe Elle is just trying to make sure things play out the way they are supposed to, she's the timecop. She makes difficult decisions to keep time on track, even sacrificing her son. She did crap her britches though in the same Episode mentioned above when Desmond was going to take the ring and marry Penny, obviously Desmond was about to change something and she had to set it back on course.

I took what Zeke said to Michael to be the truth. The island wasn't done with him yet. He still had another part to play.

I agree that Eloise is the time cop! She seems to be the one that shaped Dan's theories on time travel and it wasn't until he went to Ann Arbor and studied on his own that he realized he forgot about the variables in his equation.

[BomberDawg95]

Okay, we're moving a little away from what I was hitting at.

First, no the bomb didn't go off.

Second, had Miles not been there, Cheng would've been pulled, via his left arm, into the hole, as the scaffolding through his hand was metal. I think he would've lost is like the French guy lost his arm, through a ridiculous amount force.

I think what we're seeing is the most recent time-loops. It doesn't 'change' whatever happened in the past, but it does work to create a new future. Why, you ask? I cite Jacob's opening quote again, about progress. "There's only one ultimate ending, everything else is progress."

The Island has been driving towards this ultimate ending, but it has never been able to get there, because try as it might, it cannot manipulate free will. It can only set you up to do what you need to do. This occurrence that we are witnessing is only the most recent iteration of this sequence of events. Perhaps the one before this, the Incident happened differently. Before that, the Incident didn't happen, and so forth and so forth.

The lack of births on the Island isn't gonna have a truly scienctific explanation, I'm afraid. Its too hit-or-miss. I think the lack of births is caused by our mysterious character in black at the beginning. He suggested that humans are nothing but bad or evil. He traps Jacob, and then proceeds to prevent humans from being able to procreate on the Island following the Incident, to bring things back to the way they were prior to the Black Rock's arrival.

I assure you, the bomb didn't go off in the past. You may want it to, but it didn't. If it had, at the time it would have, Cheng would never have lost his arm, because the EM energy would've dissipated.

We're starting a whole new storyline, separate from the previous one. Because, in the previous one, whatever happened, happened.

I have a diagram in my head, but I can't put it up here. I'll try to here soon.

[ortrules]

The Incident happened, what happened, happened. Like it had happened before, the bomb was brought to the Swan, however, in the original storyline, the bomb did not go off. Maybe Juliet lacked the courage or strength to set it off. Maybe the fall killed her. Either way, what happened, happened. However, things took place in such a way this time around that the fall did NOT kill Juliet.

How do you know the bomb did not go off the first time around? Inside the Swan there was a thick wall of concrete, and Sayid remarked that the last time he saw concrete like that was Chernobyl. A hydrogen bomb explosion would have similar effects to Chernobyl.

I think many of you were correct about the Jughead warhead being the failsafe. Dharma discovered it undetonated, and were unwilling to detonate it. So they made it a fail safe, should the worst happen. This time, however, Juliet triggers the bomb, imploding the Swan and changing the storyline forever. To the point, I believe, that everyone from 2007, in 1977, will end up back in their proper time.

Where is the evidence of this? The failsafe could have been any explosive device designed to blow up the electromagnetic energy. In fact, if Dharma built the failsafe, I would assume that they used a normal bomb and not a bomb filled with radiation. It would be very silly of them to build a failsafe using a nuclear device - that kind of cancels out the idea of a failsafe.

Dr. Cheng did not lose his arm, as he would have if Miles had not been there or willing to save him. He would've lost his left arm, mind you, the one he didn't move in the Swan Orientation film. It is in this minor detail that we see the truth of where the writers are heading.

Changs arm was horribly wounded. It is unlikely that they will be able to save it and they will probably have to amputate it. Sadly, amputations occur more frequently than we'd like to think. If a limb can't be saved or if the injury is too much for the body, the limb is likely to get amputated. Chang has not lost the arm yet, but he will once they realized it can't be saved. His arm was crushed, his nerves were probably ripped, his bones broken - there is probably nothing salvageable, it's gone.

[hpbatman7]

The Island has been driving towards this ultimate ending, but it has never been able to get there, because try as it might, it cannot manipulate free will. It can only set you up to do what you need to do. This occurrence that we are witnessing is only the most recent iteration of this sequence of events. Perhaps the one before this, the Incident happened differently. Before that, the Incident didn't happen, and so forth and so forth.




I agree with you on this part, I had thought the bomb didn't go off (or that we had already seen it...long story) however, based on the season finale, I do believe that what we saw "always" happened...but...I do believe the island has been trying to get to this point for a long time...it (or Jacob) has just used humans to see what would happen...If you think back to the begining of the episode the....Jacob's opposite(?) asks, how the ship could have found the island, and then refers to it always ends the same way...I think Jacob has been bringing people to the island for a very long time to prove some point...what that is just yet, I don't know, but it's just some big game of chess between these 2, each time people are brought Jacob is hoping it will be different this time, but up till now, the outcome has always proven to be what Jacob's opposite has said will happen....

It's a game of some sort....in some ways it reminds me of the story of Job in the Bible and how God and Satan basicly made a bet that Job would not lose his faith if all this bad stuff happened to him.....It's def "good vs evil" and as always humans are the pawns and there is free will....that's why there is hope....hope that we can change and that things can change....I think that this is really what the show is about...we will see that at the end....


Or I could be wrong.....(shrug) lol

[Pung]

For everyone that is questioning WHH, please try and understand that the incident only happened once. Our losties were present in 1977 and were there for all the events that we saw last night. It didnt happen a 'first' time and now they are back to try it over. What we saw last night is exactly what happened the 'first' and only time. Whatever Juliet accomplishes at the bottom of the drill site will be what has always happened and created everything that we have seen after this point. Do they flash to 2007? I hope so. Does Chang lose his arm? Obviously, we've seen him w/o it. Is this a different version of the incident? No, WHH.

[notsolost42]

For everyone that is questioning WHH, please try and understand that the incident only happened once. Our losties were present in 1977 and were there for all the events that we saw last night. It didnt happen a 'first' time and now they are back to try it over. What we saw last night is exactly what happened the 'first' and only time. Whatever Juliet accomplishes at the bottom of the drill site will be what has always happened and created everything that we have seen after this point. Do they flash to 2007? I hope so. Does Chang lose his arm? Obviously, we've seen him w/o it. Is this a different version of the incident? No, WHH.

You got that right Pung!!!! You cannot change the past. This occured in the past...it always happened.

[ortrules]

You got that right Pung!!!! You cannot change the past. This occured in the past...it always happened.

Welcome to our side notso.

[notsolost42]

Welcome to our side notso.

I never disagreed completly. I think that tcc because when it is someone like Jack or Kate and it is their present/future, they are still on track to make it all happen anew because their future has not been lived yet. It's the things in the past that cannot change...I still think that they can have an influence on things though. Remember my thread about the plutonium trigger? Well, I knew it all would happen because it did happen.

[Tangbeast]

I have to completly disagree here. Chang will lose his arm...didn't you see it get caught in the heavy metal scaffolding? Didn't you see he was all bloodied? And the bomb always did go off. That is why they put quarantine on the hatches, took the injections most likely for radiation sickness, and wore hazmat suits. It also explains the fertility issues and the cancer cure and cause problems. I absolutly do not see what you are looking at one bit! The incident always happened and it did this time however, the losties flashed out of there and will likely be the thing that Jacob was talking about with his last dying breath....."they're coming" or something like that....
Completely agree with you Notsolost. Of course it did happen. That's why Richard said, "I watched them all die". The bomb went off, there was a blast and he thinks that they all died in the blast.

The creators said that next season will be about something else - this season was about Time Travel. So the time travel stops. The blast brings all our losties who were lost in time back to where they belong. And then the war begins.

[notsolost42]

Completely agree with you Notsolost. Of course it did happen. That's why Richard said, "I watched them all die". The bomb went off, there was a blast and he thinks that they all died in the blast.

The creators said that next season will be about something else - this season was about Time Travel. So the time travel stops. The blast brings all our losties who were lost in time back to where they belong. And then the war begins.

Time travel is not completly dead....the losties still have to get where they're going! Imagine Richard's face if they pop up on the beach! I think though, after that my favorite part of the story is gone, but there are still great things to come!

[DNIYM]

I have to completly disagree here. Chang will lose his arm...didn't you see it get caught in the heavy metal scaffolding? Didn't you see he was all bloodied? And the bomb always did go off. That is why they put quarantine on the hatches, took the injections most likely for radiation sickness, and wore hazmat suits. It also explains the fertility issues and the cancer cure and cause problems. I absolutly do not see what you are looking at one bit! The incident always happened and it did this time however, the losties flashed out of there and will likely be the thing that Jacob was talking about with his last dying breath....."they're coming" or something like that....

I can't believe I'm typing this, but I agree with Barry Horowitz over there.

Firstly, we've never actually seen what happened in 1977, so we have no way of accurately stating what the "original storyline" was. And, since that is the underlying premise for this entire thread, that pretty much calls into question everything predicated upon it.

Secondly, we saw Chang get his arm crushed under the metal that collapsed. I was half drunk and still saw it. So, that part of this theory is completely erroneous.

Other than that, solid call.

(Oh, and for those unaware, Barry Horowitz was a professional wrestler in the 1980s-90s who would frequently, physically, pat himself on the back.)