Look At This!!!!

[Sawyerroxmysox]

check this out:

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Juliets-8.jpg

[Dzbabykel]

Haha I think thats just a coincidence, a rope makes an 8 like that when you tie it, lol but thats interesting someone actually took that screen cap.

[bunnydixon]

yeah - good timing more than coinky dink!

[Robo42]

I see the pic SRMS, but I'm lost to it's significance. What am I missing, I can't figure it out.

[jacksnurse]

AN 8 when is that even from...why is it impt??? cause the #8??

[Sawyerroxmysox]

w/e jacksnurse...u must be blind

[bunnydixon]

well she saw it so not blind - confused maybe as its a tad random lol!

[Turnip Queen]

Jack's nurse, you've seen more than I have - I didn't even notice it was an 8!

[Dzbabykel]

Are you saying since Jack said there were 8 survivors originally? I don't see the significance....def just a coincidence sorry.

And Jacksnurse is not blind! I got yo back girl ;)

[Turnip Queen]

The numbers must all come out in significant ways at different points - I love the whole numbers thing, it's one of my favourite ongoing themes!

[jacksnurse]

thanks dz and me urs:) whats up with srms.....come on srms join in on the fun...we can't be serious all of the time....lifes too short

[bunnydixon]

have a hoho!

[islander]

ya know...that shape reminds me of minkowski's light cone too. DZ didn't you post something about the minkowski's cone?

[Dzbabykel]

Yah I did haha but it seems to have gotten lost in all these new posts :)

[lostNspace]

Or...
could it be the symbol for infinity :rolleyes:

[spitoony]

Umm...not everything is a clue...

[bunnydixon]

Umm...not everything is a clue...


WHAT???????????!!!!!!!!!!

[thequestion]

The numbers must all come out in significant ways at different points - I love the whole numbers thing, it's one of my favourite ongoing themes!

Yes. The numbers really started out as being a huge theme in the whole story, then it seems that their importance almost faded away. I think one of the most interesting things about the show now is the background of each character.

[DriveShaft]

If signifgant (I dont think it is)

It would have to do with 8.....as in 4 8 15 16 23 42

The numbers are EVERYWHERE

Some off the top of my head:

Carl is held in room 23

Survalence room is room 16

Oceanic flight 815

Helicopter is 816....i think...may be a different combo

There is a million of these hidden places

[DriveShaft]

The numbers must all come out in significant ways at different points - I love the whole numbers thing, it's one of my favourite ongoing themes!


I think each number represents someting (death, hope, luck, blah blah blah)

I dont want to put the time in to figure it out though

Also I remember I heard 108 in a flashback, I dont remember which one though but it has its purpose

[tpbaxter]

check this out:

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Juliets-8.jpg

I can't believe this...

everyone should check this out...

[boutte]

Why ?

[tpbaxter]

Why ?

I don't know. That's why everyone has to check it out: to find out why we should check it out.

[boutte]

I don't know. That's why everyone has to check it out: to find out why we should check it out.

AH! That makes perfect sense.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

Baxie, that thing made absolutely no sense at all. :rolleyes:
Someone give this cherub a job to do today please...:D

[chester]

Hmmm, I wonder where she learned to tie knots like that? Maybe she is a dominatrix or something?

[LissaMarie]

In your dreams, Chester. :p

Well it looks like an infinity symbol to me as well as an 8. It fascinates me that someone noticed that but this show can drive you mad! Who knows when you're taking things too far and when you should dig deeper? That line doesn't exist as far as I can tell.

[tpbaxter]

In your dreams, Chester. :p

Well it looks like an infinity symbol to me as well as an 8. It fascinates me that someone noticed that but this show can drive you mad! Who knows when you're taking things too far and when you should dig deeper? That line doesn't exist as far as I can tell.

hehe, I think what you are describing is Apophenia (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Apophenia). That's what those fools at lostpedia said about the busty woman. Idiots.

The kids who find this stuff are crazy, I know, but I think you're on to something with the figure eight representing infinity, or in my mind, an infinite loop.

Here is the picture everyone is supposed to be checking out by the way:

<img src="http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/d/dc/Juliets-8.jpg" width="500" height="500" />

My theory, which I will now start referring to as the tpbaxter Theory, is that there is some kind of time loop happening in Lost. I know it's kind of vague, but that's all I've got so far. Even if there are alternate universes, I still think a helpless time loop will occur, where one reality causes the other, like a Möbius loop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Möbius_strip), which the writers said the compass was in, but I don't think alternate universes are necessary for this to occur.

<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Möbius_strip.jpg" width="500" height="500" />

Also in one of the episodes, Eloise Hawking is wearing an Ouroboros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros). The idea of a dragon eating it's own tail looks kind of similar to the mobius loop and the infinity symbol, kind of.

<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Serpiente_alquimica.jpg" width="500" height="500" />

[notsolost42]

Hey Baxie! Nice thoughts! The infinite loop you are searching for is called a Closed Timelike Curve, a CTC, which I have posted about for two years now. As for the Oroburous, the one that Mrs. Hawking was wearing was not closed, which I found a little surprising. At least, not closed in the conventional way with the snake eating its own tail. It was actually looped or twisted at the top instead. I used to have a screen cap of it but not anymore. If I have time I'll look for one later to show you what I mean.

[Here'sLOCKEing at you,Kid]

gee, baxie... can YOU do that?:D

[tpbaxter]

Hey Baxie! Nice thoughts! The infinite loop you are searching for is called a Closed Timelike Curve, a CTC, which I have posted about for two years now. As for the Oroburous, the one that Mrs. Hawking was wearing was not closed, which I found a little surprising. At least, not closed in the conventional way with the snake eating its own tail. It was actually looped or twisted at the top instead. I used to have a screen cap of it but not anymore. If I have time I'll look for one later to show you what I mean.

Yes, about your closed timelike curve, I saw it when I was reading about predesination paradox just now, which I just quoted in the other thread, and will do so again here for convienience:

A predestination paradox (also called causal loop, causality loop, and (less frequently) closed loop or closed time loop) is a paradox of time travel that is often used as a convention in science fiction. It exists when a time traveller is caught in a loop of events that "predestines" or "predates" them to travel back in time. Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened must happen. A time traveler attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling their role in creating history as we know it, not changing it. Or that the time-traveler's personal knowledge of history already includes their future travels to their own experience of the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox

[tpbaxter]

gee, baxie... can YOU do that?:D

do what? eat my own tail? tie a knot?

I think I could eat my own tail, if I had a tail. I guess I could try eating my feet instead, but that's just gross...

And I think I can tie a knot such as this, but I'm not sure. Is it a special kind of knot? If so then maybe I cannot...

unless someone taught me...

or I read how to do it somewhere and then practiced it...

what was the question again? oh yeah, WHH.

[notsolost42]

Yes, about your closed timelike curve, I saw it when I was reading about predesination paradox just now, which I just quoted in the other thread, and will do so again here for convienience:

A predestination paradox (also called causal loop, causality loop, and (less frequently) closed loop or closed time loop) is a paradox of time travel that is often used as a convention in science fiction. It exists when a time traveller is caught in a loop of events that "predestines" or "predates" them to travel back in time. Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened must happen. A time traveler attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling their role in creating history as we know it, not changing it. Or that the time-traveler's personal knowledge of history already includes their future travels to their own experience of the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox


No, this:

Definition: A closed timelike curve (sometimes abbreviated CTC) is a theoretical solution to the general field equations of the theory of general relativity. In a closed timelike curve, the worldline of an object through spacetime follow a curious path where it eventually ends at the exact same coordinates in space and time that it began in. In other words, a closed timelike curve is the mathematical result that allows for time travel.
The first closed timelike curve was predicted in 1937 by Willem Jacob van Stockum, and was further elaborated on by the mathematician Kurt Godel in 1949. Normally, a closed timelike curve comes out of the equations through something called frame dragging, where a massive object or intense gravitational field moves and literally "drags" spacetime along with it. Many results that allow for a closed timelike curve involve a black hole, which allows for a singularity in the normally smooth fabric of spacetime, and often result in a wormhole.


And there's this:

It was once believed that CTCs would lead inevitably to logical inconsistencies such as the Grandfather Paradox. But in a groundbreaking 1991 paper, Deutsch [9] argued that this intuition fails, provided the physics of the CTC is quantum-mechanical. While Deutsch’s resolution of the Grandfather Paradox is not universally accepted, we will adopt it throughout in this paper, since it leads in a particularly clear and elegant way to a model of computation. Deutsch’s insight was that a CTC should simply be regarded as a region of spacetime where Nature enforces a requirement of
causal consistency: in other words, that the evolution operator within that region should map the state of the initial hypersurface to itself. Given the evolution operator f, Nature’s “task” is thus to find a fixed point of f: that is, an input x such that f (x) = x. Of course, not every deterministic
evolution operator f has a fixed point: that is just one way of stating the Grandfather Paradox.
On the other hand, it is a basic linear-algebra fact that every quantum operation  has a fixed point: that is, a density matrix  such that () = . For any , such a  can then be used to produce a CTC evolution that satisfies the causal consistency requirement. So for example, a
consistent resolution of the Grandfather Paradox is that you are born with 1/2 probability, and if you are born you go back in time to kill your grandfather, therefore you are born with 1/2 probability, etc.
Notice that Deutsch’s resolution works just as well in classical probabilistic theories as in quantum-mechanical ones. For just as every quantum operation has a fixed point, so every Markov chain has a stationary distribution. What matters is simply that the state space and the set of
transformations are such that fixed points exist.
It might be thought mysterious that Nature “finds” a fixed point  of : how, one might ask, does Nature do this? Does Nature not have to find  before the CTC computation starts, so that in some sense, running the computation is not even necessary? While these issues are admittedly
mysterious, to us they are not more mysterious than the starting assumption that CTCs exist! One should keep in mind that any account of a universe with CTCs is going to be strange, so perhaps the most one can hope for is that the account should be mathematically clear and consistent. And
at a purely mathematical level, Deutsch’s causal consistency account of CTCs is the clearest we have seen.

[tpbaxter]

No, this:

Definition: A closed timelike curve (sometimes abbreviated CTC) is a theoretical solution to the general field equations of the theory of general relativity. In a closed timelike curve, the worldline of an object through spacetime follow a curious path where it eventually ends at the exact same coordinates in space and time that it began in. In other words, a closed timelike curve is the mathematical result that allows for time travel.
The first closed timelike curve was predicted in 1937 by Willem Jacob van Stockum, and was further elaborated on by the mathematician Kurt Godel in 1949. Normally, a closed timelike curve comes out of the equations through something called frame dragging, where a massive object or intense gravitational field moves and literally "drags" spacetime along with it. Many results that allow for a closed timelike curve involve a black hole, which allows for a singularity in the normally smooth fabric of spacetime, and often result in a wormhole.


And there's this:

It was once believed that CTCs would lead inevitably to logical inconsistencies such as the Grandfather Paradox. But in a groundbreaking 1991 paper, Deutsch [9] argued that this intuition fails, provided the physics of the CTC is quantum-mechanical. While Deutsch’s resolution of the Grandfather Paradox is not universally accepted, we will adopt it throughout in this paper, since it leads in a particularly clear and elegant way to a model of computation. Deutsch’s insight was that a CTC should simply be regarded as a region of spacetime where Nature enforces a requirement of
causal consistency: in other words, that the evolution operator within that region should map the state of the initial hypersurface to itself. Given the evolution operator f, Nature’s “task” is thus to find a fixed point of f: that is, an input x such that f (x) = x. Of course, not every deterministic
evolution operator f has a fixed point: that is just one way of stating the Grandfather Paradox.
On the other hand, it is a basic linear-algebra fact that every quantum operation  has a fixed point: that is, a density matrix  such that () = . For any , such a  can then be used to produce a CTC evolution that satisfies the causal consistency requirement. So for example, a
consistent resolution of the Grandfather Paradox is that you are born with 1/2 probability, and if you are born you go back in time to kill your grandfather, therefore you are born with 1/2 probability, etc.
Notice that Deutsch’s resolution works just as well in classical probabilistic theories as in quantum-mechanical ones. For just as every quantum operation has a fixed point, so every Markov chain has a stationary distribution. What matters is simply that the state space and the set of
transformations are such that fixed points exist.
It might be thought mysterious that Nature “finds” a fixed point  of : how, one might ask, does Nature do this? Does Nature not have to find  before the CTC computation starts, so that in some sense, running the computation is not even necessary? While these issues are admittedly
mysterious, to us they are not more mysterious than the starting assumption that CTCs exist! One should keep in mind that any account of a universe with CTCs is going to be strange, so perhaps the most one can hope for is that the account should be mathematically clear and consistent. And
at a purely mathematical level, Deutsch’s causal consistency account of CTCs is the clearest we have seen.

Yes, about your closed timelike curve, I saw it when I was reading about predesination paradox just now, which I just quoted in the other thread, and will do so again here for convienience:

A predestination paradox (also called causal loop, causality loop, and (less frequently) closed loop or closed time loop) is a paradox of time travel that is often used as a convention in science fiction. It exists when a time traveller is caught in a loop of events that "predestines" or "predates" them to travel back in time. Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened must happen. A time traveler attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling their role in creating history as we know it, not changing it. Or that the time-traveler's personal knowledge of history already includes their future travels to their own experience of the past.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradox

[notsolost42]

Wait Baxie...read this...it is much easier on the eyes and explains things well and it also explains why the Grandfather Paradox is, well, meaningless in the grand scope of things. It's all mathematical but this thing isn't. It even has a picture of Homer Simpson's father! doh!

http://www.scottaaronson.com/talks/ctc.ppt

The point that keeps coming up about PSpace is something I also posted about many times. It is about probability. The games they played, backgammon, chess, even Connect 6 or whatever it was, they are all PSpace games. That's why the games were a recurring theme in the show. It's all there. Even in the name of the discoverer of CTC's....Willem JACOB van Stockem. His wife's name was EMILY and he died in a plane crash. Weird coincidences? I think not. And CTC's ties in with quantum physics, the negatively charged exotic matter, the purple sky events, wormholes, time travel, etc., etc., etc.

[chester]

hehe, I think what you are describing is Apophenia (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Apophenia). That's what those fools at lostpedia said about the busty woman. Idiots.

The kids who find this stuff are crazy, I know, but I think you're on to something with the figure eight representing infinity, or in my mind, an infinite loop.

Here is the picture everyone is supposed to be checking out by the way:

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/lostpedia/images/d/dc/Juliets-8.jpg

My theory, which I will now start referring to as the tpbaxter Theory, is that there is some kind of time loop happening in Lost. I know it's kind of vague, but that's all I've got so far. Even if there are alternate universes, I still think a helpless time loop will occur, where one reality causes the other, like a Möbius loop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Möbius_strip), which the writers said the compass was in, but I don't think alternate universes are necessary for this to occur.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Möbius_strip.jpg

Also in one of the episodes, Eloise Hawking is wearing an Ouroboros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros). The idea of a dragon eating it's own tail looks kind of similar to the mobius loop and the infinity symbol, kind of.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Serpiente_alquimica.jpg

Nice outline WHH Bax :) I think it's fairly obvious that if they end up keeping with WHH this will be what they will base it on.

I like the rope pic, that is kinda like a mobius loop, except that it has two ends, one in the left hand one in the right hand....

[tpbaxter]

Nice outline WHH Bax :) I think it's fairly obvious that if they end up keeping with WHH this will be what they will base it on.

I like the rope pic, that is kinda like a mobius loop, except that it has two ends, one in the left hand one in the right hand....

the tpbaxter theory of time loop in lost applies to TCC and WHH, although I don't understand why it's anymore obvious this will happen with WHH than TCC. I suspect this is some kind of backhanded compliment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backhanded_compliment)?

I don't understand what you're getting at with the two ends thing. Maybe it will be more like a mobius loop when she finishes tying it?

[tpbaxter]

Wait Baxie...read this...it is much easier on the eyes and explains things well and it also explains why the Grandfather Paradox is, well, meaningless in the grand scope of things. It's all mathematical but this thing isn't. It even has a picture of Homer Simpson's father! doh!

http://www.scottaaronson.com/talks/ctc.ppt

The point that keeps coming up about PSpace is something I also posted about many times. It is about probability. The games they played, backgammon, chess, even Connect 6 or whatever it was, they are all PSpace games. That's why the games were a recurring theme in the show. It's all there. Even in the name of the discoverer of CTC's....Willem JACOB van Stockem. His wife's name was EMILY and he died in a plane crash. Weird coincidences? I think not. And CTC's ties in with quantum physics, the negatively charged exotic matter, the purple sky events, wormholes, time travel, etc., etc., etc.

Your link made my computer crash. Is that what kind of trickery you've resorted to now notso?

* tsk tsk tsk *

[chester]

I don't understand what you're getting at with the two ends thing. Maybe it will be more like a mobius loop when she finishes tying it?

There will still be two ends. One end going into the loop, and one end coming out.

[tpbaxter]

There will still be two ends. One end going into the loop, and one end coming out.

I think you're missing the point.

Anyway, what's your point?

[chester]

I think you're missing the point.

Anyway, what's your point?

Endless loops without beginning or end, suck. :)

[tpbaxter]

Endless loops without beginning or end, suck. :)

* shrugs *

I don't know how to respond to this so I will follow your advice from the other football thread.

By the way, on a related note, I've recently determined that talking to you is a rather pointless endeavor. :)

Then don't :p

[chester]

No sweat. Your comment is reciprocated. It seems all we have to talk about is WHH and friggin TCC, which at this point is pointless.

*shrugs back*

[LissaMarie]

Scary thought of the day for you, TP! I posted something about the mobius loop awhile ago and included the same picture from Wiki. :D

You know what the say about great minds! Hahahaha :p

[chester]

This might blow your theory about great minds but, hey, I posted something about the mobius strip awhile ago too. :D

[LissaMarie]

We can still call it the TP Baxter theory. I think it has a nice ring to it! :)

[chester]

Works for me

[LissaMarie]

Oh and I was being facetious about the great minds thing. I'm relatively sure TP thinks I'm a boob and it would drive him batty that we were thinking similar thoughts. :D

[chester]

Oh and I was being facetious about the great minds thing. I'm relatively sure TP thinks I'm a boob and it would drive him batty that we were thinking similar thoughts. :D

So what are your thoughts about it then? Are you saying you believe that the story of LOST is like a mobius strip with no beginning and no end, or you agree that this is pretty much what WHAH means?

For whatever it's worth, I go with the latter. It could well be that the story of LOST is a mobius loop, that certainly seems to be what they are setting up on the side of WHH. I personally just hope it is not. That would kinda be like the Dark Tower conclusion, except there would never be a chance that he would ever get to take his horn (or whatever it was he needed to take to the tower).

I prefer the actual ending to Dark Tower, that there is a slight chance to break out of the loop, you just need to make the 'right' decisions. In LOST; as a group. That was my point with the two ends of the rope knot that looks kinda like a mobius loop (apart from the end bits).

I just want something that makes logical causee and effect sense. So I can accept a loop as long as there were conditions that brought it about. And just as a story-telling preference, I also hope that conditions allow for the loop to be broken, however slight the chance.

[LissaMarie]

Hmmm...well, I have no predictions as to where the story is going to go but I certainly have an opinion as to to where I would like it to go. An endless loop is just plain boring and frustrating! I think there are enough bread crumb hints along the way so far (characters classified as "special", Daniel's discussion about the Losties being variables) that I'm just going to continue to hope that the loop will be broken.

[tpbaxter]

We can still call it the TP Baxter theory. I think it has a nice ring to it! :)

Why does LissaMarie insist on putting a space between the tp and baxter and also capitalizes some of those letters.

* shakes head in disapproval *

I guess you can stop calling it the tpbaxter theory, since it just says there might be a time loop in Lost and as you guys have pointed out I am certainly not the first to have that idea. I think these guys are way ahead on this one, although I don't agree with most of their theory:

http://www.timelooptheory.com/

By the way, I think time loops are very cool and interesting. There was a time loop of sorts in The Third Policeman, and that was interesting.

Also I'm still not getting why WHH is more prone to time loops than TCC. Actually the conundrum with TCC that many of us are afraid of is an unexplainable time loop:

Person is born, goes back in time, kills their grandfather, person does not get born, person does not go back in time, person does not kill their grandfather, person is born, person goes back time, person kills their grandfather,...

[chester]

I agree that TCC with 'course correction' is going to be susceptible to repetitive loops. It would be like the throwing of pebbles in a stream, but the causes that led/leads to the timetraveller (or a proxy?) going back and doing it all again are likely to repeated due to the 'correction'. However, just the possibility that changes are possible might lead a crazy post-Ann Arbor physicists/time-experimenter to think that a large enough splash might be something that breaks them out of that cycle?

[Desi420]

Having read this thread ands many like it, along with extended research, I believe its safe to say that Lost is the original idea for Gilligan's Island.

[LissaMarie]

Why does LissaMarie insist on putting a space between the tp and baxter and also capitalizes some of those letters.

* shakes head in disapproval *


If knew what tpbaxter meant I wouldn't capitalize it as if it's your first and last name.:p