Jacob and his enemy controlled the variables

[Dessie_hull]

Ok so Daniel said that they were all variables in "the variable". I think that Jacob' and his enemy have been controlling people on and off the island to do their work.

Jacob's enemy has been trying to find a way to kill Jacob. He needs to find a loophole in order to do this. I think the loophole was someone else killing Jacob. He has manipulated people on the island for centuries building up to what we saw in the Incident. Ben and Locke were manipulated in such a way that Ben gets incredibly angry at Jacob and in the end kills him.

Locke is the puppet in all of this. Both sides want him as he is so easily manipulated. If he stays on Jacob's side he can lead the others like he wanted and Ben would of been banished and stayed banished. This gets rid of the problem as there would be no Ben on the island to kill him. However, Jacob's enemy wants to control him so he will take over Ben's position and therefore make Ben angry at Jacob.

Jacob planned for Ben to be off the island after the wheel was turned. This caused Jacob's enemy to tell Locke the island is in danger and sends Locke off the island to round everyone back up so his plan can work. In reality the island isn't really in danger he just needs Locke to think it is as Locke will do anything to save the island. This causes Ben to be brought back and complete the plan.

The two Lockes is very important in all this. They represent the sides Locke has been on. One is Jacob's and the other is Jacob's enemys. It all links back to season 1 with the black and white stuff surrounding Locke. I believe that the dead body was the half of Locke that was on Jacobs side and the Locke walking around is the half of him that was on his enemys side.

Although it may seem like Jacob's enemy is evil from the way he was portrayed in the first scene i believe that the evil one will turn out to be Jacob. I think Jacob led the black rock to the island for personal gain.

So yeah thats what i think. I'm not sure how the monster ties into it all but this is just what i think is going on between Jacob and his Enemy. I know this is quite rambling too and there's probably dozens of holes in it so feel free to pick it to shreds.

[7forever]

It hangs together nicely but most would disagree that Jacob is evil.

[Doriandan]

We need to discover the philosophies of the two on the beach.
It could be they are one of the same, (black & White, good & evil, yin & Yang)

We know the island is unfindable or that JAcob summoned the Black Rock to start our chain of events.

From what we can assume I would be willing to suggest that this is an eternal backgammon game with the two philosophies intertwining.

Maybe not necessairly a game but a dual of truths. I.e. people can exist on the island because of purity or people can not exist because of corruption and violence.

Any thoughts?

[7forever]

I considered that they could be the same entity playing a game with itself. At this time it makes more sense they are different to me anyway because then they then wouldn't be dualling against anyone.

[beachblinkette]

Notso and I were talking about this ambivalent way they show various characters. TPTB present them as good or bad then cause them to appear as the opposite and so on. After these recurring bait and switch techniques and the feeling of being stung a few times, some of us back off and wait to see what they'll do next.

I like the way you have connected your thoughts Dessie, in a cohesive manner. I think it is somewhat of a problem to say Jacob is evil. I would tend to say he's somewhere on a sliding scale of being neutral to absolute Good. But this IS Lost---and you never know!!LOL

What have we seen about Jacob so far?

He is an adult male.

He appears not to age.

He has not harmed our Losties, as far we know (Nadia being iffy)

His expressions to them in his visits were all kindness and SEEMED helpful, not harmful.

In his visits,(he went to them) Jacob gave something to each of them whether an object or a spoken blessing. (lunchbox, pen, candy bar, blessing, guitar case, advice, an orchestrated pause for Sayid,etc.) We don't know IF he took an invisible something from them.

He touched them on the upper body or an extremity (nose, hands, shoulder, chest) and he doesn't APPEAR to be trying to hurt them. He even tells Locke he is sorry this happened to him.

He brings, appears closeby to people, or draws people to him.

He uses a knife and catches fish to eat. He eats Apollo candy bars. He APPEARS to need sustenance.

He has a companion/enemy of sorts: his Nemesis/Alter ego/Brother? as some call him.

He APPEARS to be pitting his POV against the Nemesis' POV and is involved in some kind of epic struggle.

He dwells in a chamber at the bottom of a statue of what APPEARS to be Sobek. Chosen Outsiders have to enter through a hidden door. (at night?)

He is barefoot in his chamber.

On the island Jacob wears simple clothes and the sandals of a fisherman. (I have seen similar ancient rope sandals found buried in the ruins of Masada in Israel) They MAY have been Roman sandals.
He is making a tapestry.

He can look out at the stars at night through an opening. (crescent moon)

His chamber contains hieroglyphs, a fire pit, pottery jars, pen and paper, spinning wheel, loom, thread, chair, and all. The fire pit APPEARS to have a smooth circle of the dark black VOLCANIC rock surrounding it.

He is first DISTINCTLY/FULLY seen by us on an island, then in the city.

He keeps Richard from aging.

He has been the leader of the Others and guided them through Richard/Ben/ Ellie, Widmore.

He uses a knife and can build a fire.

He can leave his chamber, at least we only see him outside it in the daytime when he visits the losties, Ilana, and when he is on the beach.

He is seen weaving, spinning, creating, fishing, cooking, sitting, eating, talking, walking, touching, speaking, leaving messages, waiting, looking, visiting, asking for help, listening, riding, gifting, advising, blessing, questioning, reading, writing, watching, daring, falling, bleeding, coughing, gasping and being thrown into a fire pit to APPARENTLY be consumed, thus APPARENTLY dying..

At this point, I don't see a lot of out and out evil or negativity coming FROM him.

Just some food for thought. If you want to, please add anything you see as negative to this list or give your interpretation of it, thanks. :)

[Dessie_hull]

Saying Jacob is evil is pure speculation on my part at this point. I don't think enough is known yet to say one way or the other. I just expect a typical Lost type twist in the story.

It seems odd that Jacob would lead people to the island, especially a boat full of slavers who aren't going to be the nicest of company or the purest of men.

I also hope that Jacob is evil because it seems so far that Locke, if he is alive like my theory says has chosen Jacob's enemys side and i don't want to see him on the side that is bad lol. It's more me hoping the best for one of my favourite characters.

One thing i have noticed is Jacob wore white and his enemy wore Black. Perhaps this is another link to the Black and white theme from season 1? I definitely think Locke has chosen a side and the body in the crate is representative of a part of him dying. This side dying has allowed him to focus on a goal he wishes to achieve and that goal appears to be Jacob being killed.

[you_all_everybody]

I agree that Jacob (seemingly) hasn't been out to hurt anybody. People claim that he killed nadia, but I don't think that's true. Whether she paused in the street or not, that car had every intention of hitting sayid and nadia. Ben later tells sayid that it was one of widmore's men in the car, which may or may not be true,, but either way someone was out to kill nadia and/or sayid. Jacob intervened, which eventually steered sayid back to the island.

I also found it interesting how we see a parallel between old Locke and new Locke (controlled by Anti-Jacob) in killing Jacob. Locke was never able to kill anybody on the island, even his father. He asked Sawyer to kill him instead. New Locke, even though he might not really be the John Locke we know, still can't kill and has to ask someone else to murder Jacob.

[beachblinkette]

Saying Jacob is evil is pure speculation on my part at this point. I don't think enough is known yet to say one way or the other. I just expect a typical Lost type twist in the story.

It seems odd that Jacob would lead people to the island, especially a boat full of slavers who aren't going to be the nicest of company or the purest of men.

I also hope that Jacob is evil because it seems so far that Locke, if he is alive like my theory says has chosen Jacob's enemys side and i don't want to see him on the side that is bad lol. It's more me hoping the best for one of my favourite characters.

One thing i have noticed is Jacob wore white and his enemy wore Black. Perhaps this is another link to the Black and white theme from season 1? I definitely think Locke has chosen a side and the body in the crate is representative of a part of him dying. This side dying has allowed him to focus on a goal he wishes to achieve and that goal appears to be Jacob being killed.
I was shocked to see Locke apparently being the bad guy! I was so into the new and improved Locke, I was more gullible than I like to let on!! So, I'm with you, Dessie, I don't want to see Locke turn out to be bad. What is in the back of my mind is what are they going to do with the other body of Locke? Will he be brought back and be dueling against his evil self? "Locked" in a battle of good versus evil kind of like a mirroring of the contest between Jacob his Nemesis? What do you think about the possibility of that?

[Dessie_hull]

I'm not really sure how this two Lockes situation can resolve itself. Locke says he remembers dying and waking up on the island so i don't think he knows there is a dead version of himself.

Jacob saying "they're coming" makes me think the others are about to come in and Locke panicked because he wasn't sure how he was going to explain his actions so he kicked Jacob onto the fire. I don't think he is expecting the others to come in demanding to know why there is a copy of him dead outside.

I think the dead side of Locke could now be used by the monster like it used Yemi and Christian. Perhaps other people on the island will begin seeing Locke in the suit he was buried in like people see Jacks dad? Locke may have to face the monster masquerading as the other side of himself at some point.

[chuck75]

Ben once said "Dead is Dead". Locke would not be the first dead person to talk around the island. i strongly believe, tough, that the guy in the statue is John Locke... Jacob's enemy can't kill him, as he 'wanted to kill him so badly" but couldnt... is that why he asks Ben to do it? and if thats the case... didnt Locke finish Jacob?
i think they are the same Locke from different time lines... as Locke saw himself once from the distance wounded and sent Richard to talk to his other version.
I am convinced that Locke has come back to life twice already. Wasnt he dead when he felt from the building... and after Jacob touched him, he came back to life? if Jacob did it once, why not twice?
there is not really "evil" or "good" sides in Lost so far... just different motivations... two enemies can have opposite goals but that doesnt make one evil or good.
What i really want to know is... what with Hurley? why was he the only one visited by Jacob after the Oceanic 6, and asked personally to go back to the island? what is his blessing? why is he the one who can talk to the dead ones? why is he the holder of the numbers? i think he is a key character.
One more thing... 6 numbers, 6 seasons. book of genesis, each chapter (4,8,15,16...) could be stretched to be compared to each season... and chapter 42... the last number... last season... talks about Jacob going to Egypt. coincidence?

[Panda]

Notso and I were talking about this ambivalent way they show various characters. TPTB present them as good or bad then cause them to appear as the opposite and so on. After these recurring bait and switch techniques and the feeling of being stung a few times, some of us back off and wait to see what they'll do next.

I like the way you have connected your thoughts Dessie, in a cohesive manner. I think it is somewhat of a problem to say Jacob is evil. I would tend to say he's somewhere on a sliding scale of being neutral to absolute Good. But this IS Lost---and you never know!!LOL

What have we seen about Jacob so far?

He is an adult male.

He appears not to age.

He has not harmed our Losties, as far we know (Nadia being iffy)

His expressions to them in his visits were all kindness and SEEMED helpful, not harmful.

In his visits,(he went to them) Jacob gave something to each of them whether an object or a spoken blessing. (lunchbox, pen, candy bar, blessing, guitar case, advice, an orchestrated pause for Sayid,etc.) We don't know IF he took an invisible something from them.

He touched them on the upper body or an extremity (nose, hands, shoulder, chest) and he doesn't APPEAR to be trying to hurt them. He even tells Locke he is sorry this happened to him.

He brings, appears closeby to people, or draws people to him.

He uses a knife and catches fish to eat. He eats Apollo candy bars. He APPEARS to need sustenance.

He has a companion/enemy of sorts: his Nemesis/Alter ego/Brother? as some call him.

He APPEARS to be pitting his POV against the Nemesis' POV and is involved in some kind of epic struggle.

He dwells in a chamber at the bottom of a statue of what APPEARS to be Sobek. Chosen Outsiders have to enter through a hidden door. (at night?)

He is barefoot in his chamber.

On the island Jacob wears simple clothes and the sandals of a fisherman. (I have seen similar ancient rope sandals found buried in the ruins of Masada in Israel) They MAY have been Roman sandals.
He is making a tapestry.

He can look out at the stars at night through an opening. (crescent moon)

His chamber contains hieroglyphs, a fire pit, pottery jars, pen and paper, spinning wheel, loom, thread, chair, and all. The fire pit APPEARS to have a smooth circle of the dark black VOLCANIC rock surrounding it.

He is first DISTINCTLY/FULLY seen by us on an island, then in the city.

He keeps Richard from aging.

He has been the leader of the Others and guided them through Richard/Ben/ Ellie, Widmore.

He uses a knife and can build a fire.

He can leave his chamber, at least we only see him outside it in the daytime when he visits the losties, Ilana, and when he is on the beach.

He is seen weaving, spinning, creating, fishing, cooking, sitting, eating, talking, walking, touching, speaking, leaving messages, waiting, looking, visiting, asking for help, listening, riding, gifting, advising, blessing, questioning, reading, writing, watching, daring, falling, bleeding, coughing, gasping and being thrown into a fire pit to APPARENTLY be consumed, thus APPARENTLY dying..

At this point, I don't see a lot of out and out evil or negativity coming FROM him.

Just some food for thought. If you want to, please add anything you see as negative to this list or give your interpretation of it, thanks. :)

This is a clear list of actions of Jacob we have seen.
And indeed I don't see any evil in those actions.
So in fact anything that happens to people is because of their own choices. Not because Jacob or anybody else ever pushes them.
So everyone is responsible for his own choices and behavior corresponding with these choices....something like that, is the only thing that can be said....when we see what Jacob did.

But in that case we can say the same about "the anti Jacob".
Cause if Jacob his little actions proves that he never had those people in his power...it means that people can't be in "another" his or her power.
We are not shown any actions of "the anti Jacob" towards other people.
So in that case you can't even say of that the so called "anti jacob" is evil.
He only expressed that he had the feeling that he wanted to kill Jacob.
It is only at the end that we see him like in the body of Locke asking Ben to kill Jacob. Now he can ask whatever he wants....it is like Jacob says...Ben has a free will....and it is Ben that make the choice to kill anyway.....
So if you can't put the misery of people that were attracted to the Island by Jacob on Jacob his account...Than you can't take any other action of those people on the account of "the anti jacob" either....Or they have free will or they haven't...

[Dessie_hull]

[QUOTE=chuck75;225956]
there is not really "evil" or "good" sides in Lost so far... just different motivations... two enemies can have opposite goals but that doesnt make one evil or good.

This was going to be my next point. It may just come down to man of science, man of faith. Neither side is evil it is just their opinion and goals. Jacob may wish for more people to come to the island and his enemy may wish for things to stay the same. This also links with my argument that Locke sided with Jacob's enemy. Locke wants to protect the island and doesn't like people from the outside being there. It could be nothing personal towards Jacob, Locke and Jacob's enemy just think the island is better off away from outsiders.

[Doriandan]

what about the freighter folk? he killed that chick (poor memory).
also when he saved the losties during the time flash he took out the man that was going to chop off Juilete's hand.

[Doriandan]

Ben once said "Dead is Dead". Locke would not be the first dead person to talk around the island. i strongly believe, tough, that the guy in the statue is John Locke... Jacob's enemy can't kill him, as he 'wanted to kill him so badly" but couldnt... is that why he asks Ben to do it? and if thats the case... didnt Locke finish Jacob?
i think they are the same Locke from different time lines... as Locke saw himself once from the distance wounded and sent Richard to talk to his other version.
I am convinced that Locke has come back to life twice already. Wasnt he dead when he felt from the building... and after Jacob touched him, he came back to life? if Jacob did it once, why not twice?
there is not really "evil" or "good" sides in Lost so far... just different motivations... two enemies can have opposite goals but that doesnt make one evil or good.
What i really want to know is... what with Hurley? why was he the only one visited by Jacob after the Oceanic 6, and asked personally to go back to the island? what is his blessing? why is he the one who can talk to the dead ones? why is he the holder of the numbers? i think he is a key character.
One more thing... 6 numbers, 6 seasons. book of genesis, each chapter (4,8,15,16...) could be stretched to be compared to each season... and chapter 42... the last number... last season... talks about Jacob going to Egypt. coincidence?
Jacob goes to Eygpt to put his brother in prison?

[CMYanko]

For me, I see them as black\white, optimist\pessimist, creation\destruction. I seem locked in an eternal loop (but think mobius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6bius_strip)).

I got the feeling that 'not-Jacob' had come back from the last time this sort of thing happened, only when he 'lost'. And now we'll get to see Jacob's 'long(er)-con' to get even.

[beachblinkette]

This is a clear list of actions of Jacob we have seen.
And indeed I don't see any evil in those actions.
So in fact anything that happens to people is because of their own choices. Not because Jacob or anybody else ever pushes them.
So everyone is responsible for his own choices and behavior corresponding with these choices....something like that, is the only thing that can be said....when we see what Jacob did.

But in that case we can say the same about "the anti Jacob".
Cause if Jacob his little actions proves that he never had those people in his power...it means that people can't be in "another" his or her power.
We are not shown any actions of "the anti Jacob" towards other people.
So in that case you can't even say of that the so called "anti jacob" is evil.
He only expressed that he had the feeling that he wanted to kill Jacob.
It is only at the end that we see him like in the body of Locke asking Ben to kill Jacob. Now he can ask whatever he wants....it is like Jacob says...Ben has a free will....and it is Ben that make the choice to kill anyway.....
So if you can't put the misery of people that were attracted to the Island by Jacob on Jacob his account...Than you can't take any other action of those people on the account of "the anti jacob" either....Or they have free will or they haven't...
As far as Jacob's nemesis or anti-Jacob, some people have speculated about the beach scene where Jacob and Nemesis are talking. Jacob asks if Nemesis wants any fish. The Nemesis says , "No thanks, I just ate." This was creepy because some fans thought it sounded like he'd just eaten another a soul or something. Eewwwww.