Please....a Must Read!!!! Omg!!!

[notsolost42]

I started this thought on another thread but felt I should restart it with more information. I was watching a season 3 rerun and heard something that made my jaw just drop open!!!! It was a real WTF moment!!!! Below please find the transcript from the season 5 episode and season 3 episode. I highlighted the line I am talking about in bold RED. I cannot believe this! Please note who says it and when!!!

Season 5, Episode "I Do"



NIKKI: What happened to him?

LOCKE: Must have been an animal. Maybe one of the bears.

NIKKI: Are we gonna carry him back?

LOCKE: No. We're gonna bury him here.

DESMOND: Are we?

LOCKE: The people back in camp... there's just been a few too many funerals lately. Nobody needs to see him like this. I'll slip back to the beach and get a couple of shovels.

SAYID: I'll come with you.

LOCKE: I'll be back in an hour.

SAYID: [Raising voice] It's not safe to go alone, John!

LOCKE: I appreciate your concern.

[Locke starts walking off by himself. Sayid picks up his bag and starts following him without asking.]

[B]SAYID: So, what killed Eko?

LOCKE: [Stops to drink out of water bottle] Folks back at the beach call it "the Monster". I don't really have a name for it. You don't believe in monsters?

SAYID: I believe in what I can see. But obviously you have. So, why don't you tell me what you think it is?

LOCKE: Might be what brought us here.

SAYID: So, you think that this Monster decided that Eko was meant to die?

LOCKE: I believe that Eko died for a reason. I just don't know what it is yet.

SAYID: That's why you lied? We're not headed back to the camp, are we, John?

LOCKE: Sure we are. Just need to take a little detour first. [Walks off again]


Season 5, Episode "Dead is Dead"

LOCKE: Ben.



LOCKE: Hello, Ben. Welcome back to the land of the living.

BEN: [Whispers] My God. You're alive.

LOCKE: Yes, I am.

BEN: I knew it. I knew that this would happen.

LOCKE: Then why are you so surprised to see me?

BEN: [Normal voice] Because it's one thing to believe it, John. It's another thing to see it.

LOCKE: Then why were you trying to run away to the main Island?

BEN: I broke the rules, John. I came back to the Island. I was going to answer for what I'd done. I was going back... to be judged.

[B]LOCKE: [Whispers] Judged? [Normal voice] By whom?

BEN: Well, J-John, we don't even have a word for it, but I believe you call it the Monster.



Okay, what the heck is going on?????? In season 3 John Locke says the same line, almost verbatum, that Ben says in season 5 about the smoke monster???????

Here's my thoughts. John Locke died when he fell eight stories from Anthony Cooper's apartment. Jacob was waiting and touched him. I think we are all pretty much in agreement that John was dead and Jacob brought him back to life. Well, what if when Jacob did that he actually transferred into his body also? So, now instead of John Locke on the island, we have Jacob in his body. It's not that John Locke is Jacob...it's Jacob is John Locke. This accounts for him being so all knowing about the island....when it's going to rain, when it will stop, etc., etc. And, that he gets up and walks after flight 815 crashes.

So, now we have Jacob Locke (let's just call him that for now) on the island. And that's who goes back to bring the 06 back again. That's who Ben kills but....when Ben kills him, his essence transfers to Ben now and now Ben is Jacob.

The body of Locke is brought back to the island. The man in the dark shirt now takes over his body. Most likely, yes it is smokie. We now have deadlocke walking around. He orders Ben to kill Jacob. But, the essence of Jacob is really Ben now. Jacob is not really dead because Ben is Jacob!!!!

What about that????? Does anyone else have an idea as to why John Locke says the same thing about smokie in season 3 that the leader of the Others says in season 5? Wow!!!! Is this just a big body snatcher game going on? IDK. But, this is something big!!! Really BIG!!!! We really need to bat this around and figure it out!!!! I don't think it's the writers running out of things to write either! lol. And, it's not a production error! lol.

[rachelskid]

http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8920&highlight=rachelskid

yep. my jaw dropped when i heard that too. read no. 4 above. don't know what it means though...

[weldonryckman]

Excellent find. I've been toying with the idea that Jacob/his rival have been present in different people throughout the show, revealing themselves in sparks etc. For example, there have been multiple times when John Locke finds a new sense of purpose before dying, and it usually comes after reaching a low point. (Not pushing the button, saving eko) There have been many times when Locke reaches some level of ascension that seems very unlike the real him, but we accepted it as who he was.

[notsolost42]

http://www.lost.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8920&highlight=rachelskid

yep. my jaw dropped when i heard that too. read no. 4 above. don't know what it means though...

Excellent call Rachel!!! I didn't read that thread I guess. I am not stealing your thunder by any means. But this is huge!!!! We all need to figure out this game of body snatchers!!!! lol.

[notsolost42]

Excellent find. I've been toying with the idea that Jacob/his rival have been present in different people throughout the show, revealing themselves in sparks etc. For example, there have been multiple times when John Locke finds a new sense of purpose before dying, and it usually comes after reaching a low point. (Not pushing the button, saving eko) There have been many times when Locke reaches some level of ascension that seems very unlike the real him, but we accepted it as who he was.

Excellent points....that sounds a little bit more clear than what I had said...nice job!

[Jelena]

So, now we have Jacob Locke (let's just call him that for now) on the island. And that's who goes back to bring the 06 back again. That's who Ben kills but....when Ben kills him, his essence transfers to Ben now and now Ben is Jacob.

The body of Locke is brought back to the island. The man in the dark shirt now takes over his body. Most likely, yes it is smokie. We now have deadlocke walking around. He orders Ben to kill Jacob. But, the essence of Jacob is really Ben now. Jacob is not really dead because Ben is Jacob!!!!


That sounds way too complicated, and doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What would be the point of transferring the spirit like that?

Even though I do thing that Locke died when he was thrown out the window, I am strong in my conviction that he is himself up until the point that Ben kills him/or rather, until he's resurrected back on the island.
Locke grew a lot as a character during his first stay on the island, he exhibited clear human emotions - and he even became so desperate to want to kill himself. I don't see any of the Jacobs as treating themselves that way.

Once resurrected, Locke is completely different: totally sure of himself and always has that smirk on his face, which is more like the Jacobs.

So, basically, I don't agree with you at all. :D I believe that there's a really simple explanation for everything that's happening, cause "the simplest is solution is always the best one".

[notsolost42]

That sounds way too complicated, and doesn't make a lot of sense to me. What would be the point of transferring the spirit like that?

Even though I do thing that Locke died when he was thrown out the window, I am strong in my conviction that he is himself up until the point that Ben kills him/or rather, until he's resurrected back on the island.
Locke grew a lot as a character during his first stay on the island, he exhibited clear human emotions - and he even became so desperate to want to kill himself. I don't see any of the Jacobs as treating themselves that way.

Once resurrected, Locke is completely different: totally sure of himself and always has that smirk on his face, which is more like the Jacobs.

So, basically, I don't agree with you at all. :D I believe that there's a really simple explanation for everything that's happening, cause "the simplest is solution is always the best one".


Well, I guess first you'll have to get over thinking that John Locke is still alive! John Locke is DEAD...Dead is dead and he is dead!!!!!

[rachelskid]

Excellent call Rachel!!! I didn't read that thread I guess. I am not stealing your thunder by any means. But this is huge!!!! We all need to figure out this game of body snatchers!!!! lol.

oh no, by all means, i did not mean it that way. just glad someone else felt the same way. literally my jaw dropped too when i heard it. i was watching the rerun in one room and then had to run to the other room's dvr to compare the two phrases. and, indeed, during that scene, locke was very cock-sure. i don't know what this means though. I can see how locke's body was snatched early on, but IDK, i feel like this would be a major cheat on the part of TPTB. not really sure exactly why. something is off. this tv show needs a flow chart.

[notsolost42]

oh no, by all means, i did not mean it that way. just glad someone else felt the same way. literally my jaw dropped too when i heard it. i was watching the rerun in one room and then had to run to the other room's dvr to compare the two phrases. and, indeed, during that scene, locke was very cock-sure. i don't know what this means though. I can see how locke's body was snatched early on, but IDK, i feel like this would be a major cheat on the part of TPTB. not really sure exactly why. something is off. this tv show needs a flow chart.

LOL!!! I never took it that way, don't worry. I think this show needs more than one flow chart!!!! LOL!!! Do you speak Russian? I noticed how you were able to understand the differences in the Russian language on another thread. I only know a few words...and just a tiny, tiny bit of Ukranian. BTW, that hospital that Ilana was in absolutly seemed like some Russian hospital ward...sterile looking and run down. Just the image that one would have of it I think! Not to say that there aren't more modern hospitals there but I am sure they are few and far between. And, one would have to be wealthy, powerful or both to be placed in it for sure! lol.

[rachelskid]

LOL!!! I never took it that way, don't worry. I think this show needs more than one flow chart!!!! LOL!!! Do you speak Russian? I noticed how you were able to understand the differences in the Russian language on another thread. I only know a few words...and just a tiny, tiny bit of Ukranian. BTW, that hospital that Ilana was in absolutly seemed like some Russian hospital ward...sterile looking and run down. Just the image that one would have of it I think! Not to say that there aren't more modern hospitals there but I am sure they are few and far between. And, one would have to be wealthy, powerful or both to be placed in it for sure! lol.

yep, speak russian, was born there, immigrated many years ago when i was only 5. but, kept speaking at home. indeed that's what i was getting at in that other post. the rundown nature of the hospital does not in and of itself mean that its the 70's! lol. i wouldn't think much of it because lost is fairly international, but for the fact that sayid was killing in russia. if jacob has people in russia and ben is having sayid kill in russia...hmmmm

anyway, watching reruns of lost has been enlightening this entire season, but after the finale, i bet there are lots of mind blowing things. now, we can safely assume (still assumption) that jacob brought the losties to the island and thats why the plane was 1000 miles off course. which begs the question: does desmond's missed button pushing really have an impact on the plane crash?

[notsolost42]

yep, speak russian, was born there, immigrated many years ago when i was only 5. but, kept speaking at home. indeed that's what i was getting at in that other post. the rundown nature of the hospital does not in and of itself mean that its the 70's! lol. i wouldn't think much of it because lost is fairly international, but for the fact that sayid was killing in russia. if jacob has people in russia and ben is having sayid kill in russia...hmmmm

anyway, watching reruns of lost has been enlightening this entire season, but after the finale, i bet there are lots of mind blowing things. now, we can safely assume (still assumption) that jacob brought the losties to the island and thats why the plane was 1000 miles off course. which begs the question: does desmond's missed button pushing really have an impact on the plane crash?

My grandparents on one side were from Russia. My exhusband is first generation American born Ukranian. I learned some Ukranian and Polish but never too much Russian. I agree, the state of the hospital was not to show it was in the 70's but rather to show it was "state of the art" in Russia! It was so drab! Maybe those two are pulling all the strings! Wouldn't that be something then! All of the theologic vs. science theories would go right out the window! Nothing but two guys playing a cosmic game!

[Jelena]

Well, I guess first you'll have to get over thinking that John Locke is still alive! John Locke is DEAD...Dead is dead and he is dead!!!!!

Oh wait, I do think he is dead now, but I believe he died only after Ben killed him. I think Locke was Locke after becoming handicapped. Were you trying to say that I should think he died after the fall, and hasn't been himself (but an entity) ever since that?

[notsolost42]

Oh wait, I do think he is dead now, but I believe he died only after Ben killed him. I think Locke was Locke after becoming handicapped. Were you trying to say that I should think he died after the fall, and hasn't been himself (but an entity) ever since that?

Well, I actually don't even remember what it was that you had originally said now. But, I am beginning to think that yes, John Locke died from the fall and Jacob took over right then and there.

[wiley]

I think he put a fraction of his essence in each one. I believe he touched 8 people like the 8 spokes of the wheel. When they all come together it will enable him to be reconstituted (for the lack of a better word).

[notsolost42]

I think he put a fraction of his essence in each one. I believe he touched 8 people like the 8 spokes of the wheel. When they all come together it will enable him to be reconstituted (for the lack of a better word).

Eight people? Did I miss something? Who were the eight people?
Sawyer
Kate
Jack
Sayid
Locke
?
?
?
Who am I missing! I forgot already! lol.

[wiley]

Eight people? Did I miss something? Who were the eight people?
Sawyer
Kate
Jack
Sayid
Locke
?
?
?
Who am I missing! I forgot already! lol.

Plus Hurley, Jin and Sun.

[notsolost42]

Plus Hurley, Jin and Sun.

Thanks...must be old age setting in! lol. How could I possibly forget them???

[Nemesis Prime]

Read my other topic titled People people people... That will clear things up..

Actually, I think that makes the question even that much more valid.

[wiley]

I'm just glad this is all in one thread, I'd never be able to keep up.:)

[Jelena]

Yeah, I too thought to myself that theorizing about Lost MAY BE pointless, but then I realized that not only was I right on more than few occasions, BUT IT'S soooooooo much FUN to actually do this. That's why I joined the forum. And I can't wait for the final season, and being a part of this forum will make me feel like Lost is still airing. :D

[notsolost42]

Yeah, I too thought to myself that theorizing about Lost MAY BE pointless, but then I realized that not only was I right on more than few occasions, BUT IT'S soooooooo much FUN to actually do this. That's why I joined the forum. And I can't wait for the final season, and being a part of this forum will make me feel like Lost is still airing. :D

And Jelena, it's nice to have you here.

[notsolost42]

I started this thought on another thread but felt I should restart it with more information. I was watching a season 3 rerun and heard something that made my jaw just drop open!!!! It was a real WTF moment!!!! Below please find the transcript from the season 5 episode and season 3 episode. I highlighted the line I am talking about in bold RED. I cannot believe this! Please note who says it and when!!!

Season 5, Episode "I Do"



NIKKI: What happened to him?

LOCKE: Must have been an animal. Maybe one of the bears.

NIKKI: Are we gonna carry him back?

LOCKE: No. We're gonna bury him here.

DESMOND: Are we?

LOCKE: The people back in camp... there's just been a few too many funerals lately. Nobody needs to see him like this. I'll slip back to the beach and get a couple of shovels.

SAYID: I'll come with you.

LOCKE: I'll be back in an hour.

SAYID: [Raising voice] It's not safe to go alone, John!

LOCKE: I appreciate your concern.

[Locke starts walking off by himself. Sayid picks up his bag and starts following him without asking.]

[B]SAYID: So, what killed Eko?

LOCKE: [Stops to drink out of water bottle] Folks back at the beach call it "the Monster". I don't really have a name for it. You don't believe in monsters?

SAYID: I believe in what I can see. But obviously you have. So, why don't you tell me what you think it is?

LOCKE: Might be what brought us here.

SAYID: So, you think that this Monster decided that Eko was meant to die?

LOCKE: I believe that Eko died for a reason. I just don't know what it is yet.

SAYID: That's why you lied? We're not headed back to the camp, are we, John?

LOCKE: Sure we are. Just need to take a little detour first. [Walks off again]


Season 5, Episode "Dead is Dead"

LOCKE: Ben.



LOCKE: Hello, Ben. Welcome back to the land of the living.

BEN: [Whispers] My God. You're alive.

LOCKE: Yes, I am.

BEN: I knew it. I knew that this would happen.

LOCKE: Then why are you so surprised to see me?

BEN: [Normal voice] Because it's one thing to believe it, John. It's another thing to see it.

LOCKE: Then why were you trying to run away to the main Island?

BEN: I broke the rules, John. I came back to the Island. I was going to answer for what I'd done. I was going back... to be judged.

[B]LOCKE: [Whispers] Judged? [Normal voice] By whom?

BEN: Well, J-John, we don't even have a word for it, but I believe you call it the Monster.



Okay, what the heck is going on?????? In season 3 John Locke says the same line, almost verbatum, that Ben says in season 5 about the smoke monster???????

Here's my thoughts. John Locke died when he fell eight stories from Anthony Cooper's apartment. Jacob was waiting and touched him. I think we are all pretty much in agreement that John was dead and Jacob brought him back to life. Well, what if when Jacob did that he actually transferred into his body also? So, now instead of John Locke on the island, we have Jacob in his body. It's not that John Locke is Jacob...it's Jacob is John Locke. This accounts for him being so all knowing about the island....when it's going to rain, when it will stop, etc., etc. And, that he gets up and walks after flight 815 crashes.

So, now we have Jacob Locke (let's just call him that for now) on the island. And that's who goes back to bring the 06 back again. That's who Ben kills but....when Ben kills him, his essence transfers to Ben now and now Ben is Jacob.

The body of Locke is brought back to the island. The man in the dark shirt now takes over his body. Most likely, yes it is smokie. We now have deadlocke walking around. He orders Ben to kill Jacob. But, the essence of Jacob is really Ben now. Jacob is not really dead because Ben is Jacob!!!!

What about that????? Does anyone else have an idea as to why John Locke says the same thing about smokie in season 3 that the leader of the Others says in season 5? Wow!!!! Is this just a big body snatcher game going on? IDK. But, this is something big!!! Really BIG!!!! We really need to bat this around and figure it out!!!! I don't think it's the writers running out of things to write either! lol. And, it's not a production error! lol.

Sooooo, anyway, to get back to the actual dialogue of this thread....does anyone have any ideas why John Locke said the same thing about smokie that Ben said...only alot earlier?

[Nemesis Prime]

Refresh my memory for me, did Locke say that before or after he had his encounter with smokie? It was after right?

[notsolost42]

Refresh my memory for me, did Locke say that before or after he had his encounter with smokie? It was after right?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was after he ran into smokie. What are you thinking?

[wiley]

Didn't Locke have two run ins with Smokey. 1st one was kind of an introduction and not a bad experience.
2nd time Smokey was hungry and wanted a snack?

[notsolost42]

Didn't Locke have two run ins with Smokey. 1st one was kind of an introduction and not a bad experience.
2nd time Smokey was hungry and wanted a snack?

Yeah, the first one was when he was with Charlie I think. Charlie was up a tree and Locke met smokie face to face, so to speak. He came back and said he looked into the eye of the island or something like that. He said it was beautiful. The second time was when smokie grabbed him by the ankle and tryed to drag him down his rabbit hole. Again, Locke told Jack don't worry, it won't hurt him and he wasn't scared. That's when they threw the dynamite down the rabbit hole and scared smokie away.

[Nemesis Prime]

Well, what if rather then actually being taken over when Locke fell out of the building it was really just the beginning of him being 'groomed' for his ultimate role. If Jacob took over his body right away why the wheelchair? He could have just gotten on that plane any way he wanted. He couldn't let him die because he was needed but he would have known that Locke would only end up on the island because he couldn't walk.

Now we get to Locke's encounter with smokie. More grooming, this is how John first ended up getting some of his inside info on the island, also would explain why smokie doesn't just kill him. I'm just thinking that maybe there was some preparation needed before whatever happened to Locke once he died was actually able to occur. Maybe that's what we have been seeing all along with him. Preparation for his ultimate role.

[Nemesis Prime]

Only problem I have with this either way is why Jacob would even get involved in the first place with something that would lead to his supposed death in the end.

[notsolost42]

Only problem I have with this either way is why Jacob would even get involved in the first place with something that would lead to his supposed death in the end.

Because it's the great cosmic game? Suppose they have been playing it for centuries? Suppose they don't really die...not exactly as a mortal would. Perhaps it is just what they do?

[Nemesis Prime]

I think we have been lead to believe that he can be killed one way or the other. Maybe Jacob really did want to die. He sure as hell didn't do anything to stop it. Maybe though, he had to die for a reason we just don't know yet.

[notsolost42]

I think we have been lead to believe that he can be killed one way or the other. Maybe Jacob really did want to die. He sure as hell didn't do anything to stop it. Maybe though, he had to die for a reason we just don't know yet.

Not maybe, definitly for a reason we don't know yet! I think he did have to die. I really wonder if he transfered into Ben....if that can even be? I guess it all depends on what a loophole is...or as I have been thinking, a loop hole. In other words, a hole in the time loop. A way to transverse between them or bring something back from one to the other...like John Locke's body into the mirror world where deadlocke was the dark shirted guy.

[Nemesis Prime]

Well, we are actually fairly close in our thinking here on some aspects witch is rare so I won't delve into the mirror world thing here, lol. I'll just say that instead of a loophole for himself, what if he already knew there would be someone coming in to take his place. Or even someone who is going to 'take care' of anti-Jacob, hence he would no longer be needed?

[notsolost42]

Well, we are actually fairly close in our thinking here on some aspects witch is rare so I won't delve into the mirror world thing here, lol. I'll just say that instead of a loophole for himself, what if he already knew there would be someone coming in to take his place. Or even someone who is going to 'take care' of anti-Jacob, hence he would no longer be needed?

Entirely possible I suppose. Check out my post above your last....

[Nemesis Prime]

I think that would ruin his character for me but i won't rule it out. They really didn't show much of him after he knifed Jacob did they. Maybe for a good reason...

[Panda]

There were other moments that I noticed that conversation lines come back from time to time, but that another person says it the second time.

Like John Locke's line "Don't tell me what I can't do". There is a moment where Ben uses that same phrase.

And than there is a conversation between Ben and Sayid that had somehow a bit the same content as the conversation of Ben with Jacob in last season.

After he said how loyal he has always been and went through all those lists and so on....
And Jacobs says that he is free to walk out.
Ben asks Jacob what about me?
Jacob his answer is just what about you.

There is that point where Sayid is in that kind of position.
After all the killings he had been doing there was this conversation

SAYID: Where to now?

BEN: [Contemplates.] Nowhere. You're done.

SAYID: [Incredulous] What do you mean I'm done?

BEN: We're done. Andropov was the last one. You've taken care of everyone who posed a threat to your friends. [Smiling] It's been a pleasure working with you, Sayid. [Ben starts to leave.]

SAYID: [Indignant] So that's it? I killed all those people for you, and now you're just walking away?

BEN: You didn't kill them for me, Sayid. You're the one that asked for their names. There's no one else in Widmore's organization that we need to go after. Congratulations! Mission accomplished! [Starts to leave again]

SAYID: [Quietly] What do I do now?

BEN: I suppose you should go live your life. You're free, Sayid. [Ben leaves.]

So it has much of resemblance when it comes to the content.

Except that Sayid didn't kill Ben at that very moment...it is only later he does this when he is back on the Island in 77 and he shoots Ben as kid...but Ben survives.....
So if you look at the situation of Jacob and Ben....maybe Jacob survives this as well...?

Maybe it is not really important those things and maybe it doesn't fit in your theory....
A theory that sounds good.

[notsolost42]

I think that would ruin his character for me but i won't rule it out. They really didn't show much of him after he knifed Jacob did they. Maybe for a good reason...

Weeeelll, I've always maintained that Ben is a good guy! I would love it!!!!

[Nemesis Prime]

Weeeelll, I've always maintained that Ben is a good guy! I would love it!!!!


While I have loved Ben and all the not so morally wonderful things he has done over the course of the show, I think he will have his moment of redemption. I just personally hope it won't be like that. But as I said, I wouldn't rule it out either.

[Calzer]

I started this thought on another thread but felt I should restart it with more information. I was watching a season 3 rerun and heard something that made my jaw just drop open!!!! It was a real WTF moment!!!! Below please find the transcript from the season 5 episode and season 3 episode. I highlighted the line I am talking about in bold RED. I cannot believe this! Please note who says it and when!!!

Season 5, Episode "I Do"



NIKKI: What happened to him?

LOCKE: Must have been an animal. Maybe one of the bears.

NIKKI: Are we gonna carry him back?

LOCKE: No. We're gonna bury him here.

DESMOND: Are we?

LOCKE: The people back in camp... there's just been a few too many funerals lately. Nobody needs to see him like this. I'll slip back to the beach and get a couple of shovels.

SAYID: I'll come with you.

LOCKE: I'll be back in an hour.

SAYID: [Raising voice] It's not safe to go alone, John!

LOCKE: I appreciate your concern.

[Locke starts walking off by himself. Sayid picks up his bag and starts following him without asking.]

[B]SAYID: So, what killed Eko?

LOCKE: [Stops to drink out of water bottle] Folks back at the beach call it "the Monster". I don't really have a name for it. You don't believe in monsters?

SAYID: I believe in what I can see. But obviously you have. So, why don't you tell me what you think it is?

LOCKE: Might be what brought us here.

SAYID: So, you think that this Monster decided that Eko was meant to die?

LOCKE: I believe that Eko died for a reason. I just don't know what it is yet.

SAYID: That's why you lied? We're not headed back to the camp, are we, John?

LOCKE: Sure we are. Just need to take a little detour first. [Walks off again]


Season 5, Episode "Dead is Dead"

LOCKE: Ben.



LOCKE: Hello, Ben. Welcome back to the land of the living.

BEN: [Whispers] My God. You're alive.

LOCKE: Yes, I am.

BEN: I knew it. I knew that this would happen.

LOCKE: Then why are you so surprised to see me?

BEN: [Normal voice] Because it's one thing to believe it, John. It's another thing to see it.

LOCKE: Then why were you trying to run away to the main Island?

BEN: I broke the rules, John. I came back to the Island. I was going to answer for what I'd done. I was going back... to be judged.

[B]LOCKE: [Whispers] Judged? [Normal voice] By whom?

BEN: Well, J-John, we don't even have a word for it, but I believe you call it the Monster.



Okay, what the heck is going on?????? In season 3 John Locke says the same line, almost verbatum, that Ben says in season 5 about the smoke monster???????

Here's my thoughts. John Locke died when he fell eight stories from Anthony Cooper's apartment. Jacob was waiting and touched him. I think we are all pretty much in agreement that John was dead and Jacob brought him back to life. Well, what if when Jacob did that he actually transferred into his body also? So, now instead of John Locke on the island, we have Jacob in his body. It's not that John Locke is Jacob...it's Jacob is John Locke. This accounts for him being so all knowing about the island....when it's going to rain, when it will stop, etc., etc. And, that he gets up and walks after flight 815 crashes.

So, now we have Jacob Locke (let's just call him that for now) on the island. And that's who goes back to bring the 06 back again. That's who Ben kills but....when Ben kills him, his essence transfers to Ben now and now Ben is Jacob.

The body of Locke is brought back to the island. The man in the dark shirt now takes over his body. Most likely, yes it is smokie. We now have deadlocke walking around. He orders Ben to kill Jacob. But, the essence of Jacob is really Ben now. Jacob is not really dead because Ben is Jacob!!!!

What about that????? Does anyone else have an idea as to why John Locke says the same thing about smokie in season 3 that the leader of the Others says in season 5? Wow!!!! Is this just a big body snatcher game going on? IDK. But, this is something big!!! Really BIG!!!! We really need to bat this around and figure it out!!!! I don't think it's the writers running out of things to write either! lol. And, it's not a production error! lol.



I think our theroies are quite similar, to me, this gives evidence that Locke wasn't Mr. Black Shirt until the VERY end, like he must only become part of his consciousness at certain moments for a short period of time, and when he's gone he leaves a bit of an idea for "new" locke to follow.

[imascootinspook]

This find does require some thought. I have one problem with John being dead when he fell from the building. I think to prove he survived the fall, TPTB made him paralyzed. But, it does seem John's body became a host after the plane crash, and it got stronger after Ben killed him. I think, you can still only die once in this show lol.
I am still pondering on how and why John and Ben said almost the same sentence. There has got to be more to Ben than we have been analyzing. Maybe it's whatever happened to him in the Temple? Did he become a host too? Was this point in Ben's life the same as the point in John's life when he fell? I am going to stop, I am starting to ramble my thoughts.

[chester]

This find does require some thought. I have one problem with John being dead when he fell from the building. I think to prove he survived the fall, TPTB made him paralyzed. But, it does seem John's body became a host after the plane crash, and it got stronger after Ben killed him. I think, you can still only die once in this show lol.
I am still pondering on how and why John and Ben said almost the same sentence. There has got to be more to Ben than we have been analyzing. Maybe it's whatever happened to him in the Temple? Did he become a host too? Was this point in Ben's life the same as the point in John's life when he fell? I am going to stop, I am starting to ramble my thoughts.

Mikhail's antics makes me question this...

[FoundOnLost]

did not see a touch on young Sawyer...

[LostFreak21]

So what about Rose and Bernard? Rose was dying so who made her better? I have always felt that John had been there before in some scenes. When there in the hatch talking about pushing the butyon John says something about we know we have to do it or something like that.

[losttime]

I started this thought on another thread but felt I should restart it with more information. I was watching a season 3 rerun and heard something that made my jaw just drop open!!!! It was a real WTF moment!!!! Below please find the transcript from the season 5 episode and season 3 episode. I highlighted the line I am talking about in bold RED. I cannot believe this! Please note who says it and when!!!

Season 5, Episode "I Do"



NIKKI: What happened to him?

LOCKE: Must have been an animal. Maybe one of the bears.

NIKKI: Are we gonna carry him back?

LOCKE: No. We're gonna bury him here.

DESMOND: Are we?

LOCKE: The people back in camp... there's just been a few too many funerals lately. Nobody needs to see him like this. I'll slip back to the beach and get a couple of shovels.

SAYID: I'll come with you.

LOCKE: I'll be back in an hour.

SAYID: [Raising voice] It's not safe to go alone, John!

LOCKE: I appreciate your concern.

[Locke starts walking off by himself. Sayid picks up his bag and starts following him without asking.]

[B]SAYID: So, what killed Eko?

LOCKE: [Stops to drink out of water bottle] Folks back at the beach call it "the Monster". I don't really have a name for it. You don't believe in monsters?

SAYID: I believe in what I can see. But obviously you have. So, why don't you tell me what you think it is?

LOCKE: Might be what brought us here.

SAYID: So, you think that this Monster decided that Eko was meant to die?

LOCKE: I believe that Eko died for a reason. I just don't know what it is yet.

SAYID: That's why you lied? We're not headed back to the camp, are we, John?

LOCKE: Sure we are. Just need to take a little detour first. [Walks off again]


Season 5, Episode "Dead is Dead"

LOCKE: Ben.



LOCKE: Hello, Ben. Welcome back to the land of the living.

BEN: [Whispers] My God. You're alive.

LOCKE: Yes, I am.

BEN: I knew it. I knew that this would happen.

LOCKE: Then why are you so surprised to see me?

BEN: [Normal voice] Because it's one thing to believe it, John. It's another thing to see it.

LOCKE: Then why were you trying to run away to the main Island?

BEN: I broke the rules, John. I came back to the Island. I was going to answer for what I'd done. I was going back... to be judged.

[B]LOCKE: [Whispers] Judged? [Normal voice] By whom?

BEN: Well, J-John, we don't even have a word for it, but I believe you call it the Monster.



Okay, what the heck is going on?????? In season 3 John Locke says the same line, almost verbatum, that Ben says in season 5 about the smoke monster???????

Here's my thoughts. John Locke died when he fell eight stories from Anthony Cooper's apartment. Jacob was waiting and touched him. I think we are all pretty much in agreement that John was dead and Jacob brought him back to life. Well, what if when Jacob did that he actually transferred into his body also? So, now instead of John Locke on the island, we have Jacob in his body. It's not that John Locke is Jacob...it's Jacob is John Locke. This accounts for him being so all knowing about the island....when it's going to rain, when it will stop, etc., etc. And, that he gets up and walks after flight 815 crashes.

So, now we have Jacob Locke (let's just call him that for now) on the island. And that's who goes back to bring the 06 back again. That's who Ben kills but....when Ben kills him, his essence transfers to Ben now and now Ben is Jacob.

The body of Locke is brought back to the island. The man in the dark shirt now takes over his body. Most likely, yes it is smokie. We now have deadlocke walking around. He orders Ben to kill Jacob. But, the essence of Jacob is really Ben now. Jacob is not really dead because Ben is Jacob!!!!

What about that????? Does anyone else have an idea as to why John Locke says the same thing about smokie in season 3 that the leader of the Others says in season 5? Wow!!!! Is this just a big body snatcher game going on? IDK. But, this is something big!!! Really BIG!!!! We really need to bat this around and figure it out!!!! I don't think it's the writers running out of things to write either! lol. And, it's not a production error! lol.

Some of it was plausible but after Jacob touched Locke after his dad had him exit through the window, he was still present and walked away from John and said that he was going to be ok or something like that. So if Jacob was now in John, who was filling in for jacob as he walked away from him. jacob performed the miracle on him by bringing him back from the dead. So maybe Locke is back but is being possessed by trhe smoke monster just as Roussea's team was possessed by the smoke monster or actually was the smoke monster and the team was already dead. I am sticking with my first thought that the smoke monster somehow possessed them and Locke after his resurrection in the new flesh. Richard said that John looked different somehow. The purpose that Locke spoke of was to kill jacob. Only person/thing we know who wanted to kill Jaocb was told to us in the first sceen of the Finale. The no-name guy in the black shirt who refused to eat a freshly caught and cookd fish. I wonderwhat he ate before visiting Jacob.

[thebecoming]

They both don't know what to call smokie, so they both refer to it as a monster. That's enough evidence to warrant 8 pages of speculation?

[loadedgun]

They both don't know what to call smokie, so they both refer to it as a monster. That's enough evidence to warrant 8 pages of speculation?


Thats exactly what I was thinking. Talk about making something out of nothing...

[losttime]

I'm not about to throw up a guess as to what I think the show is doing, cuz I don't have a clue. That's the thing, nobody else does either. So why bother?

As shocking as this is I am going to defend Notso. This is a website on Lost. Posting thoughts of what you think is going on or whatever pertaining to Lost. If you dont have a clue at all of what the show is doing , why are you on here unless you are trying to figure it out like the rest of us? Somethings are as clear as rain, but sure others are as thought provoking as it can get.

[weldonryckman]

I wonder if the Locke Prime is mortal? Meaning, can he be killed. And if you kill him, does Jacob's rival die? When Rousseau's team seemingly was possessed by the smoke monster, they were all murdered, which makes me question whether or not they were actually possessed.

[Dreamingwolf]

did not see a touch on young Sawyer...

he gave sawyer a pen after sawyers parents funeral, if thats not a good enough touch then I guess he didnt touch hurley either.

[Pung]

Locke and his existence is going to be a big mystery until next year. I don't know if his dialogue in S3 are significant or not, but here's what I will say...

To start off, the only reason that Locke was able to go back to 1954 to tell richard that he was the leader and that he would have to die, was becasue of what deadlocke did in 2006. I think this is important because the whole notion of Locke being the leader was because of deadlocke.

2nd, After Lockes fall and Jacob comes up to him. It definitley seems as if Jacob 'wakes him up' somehow. Whether it bringing him to from unconsciousness or it is in fact bringing him to life, I'm not sure, but it is special. The question that this poses for me is why would John need the 'guidance' of Abbadon to go on the walkabout? If jacob or a part of jacob was in him, then why extra 'guidance' from Abbadon? Which leads to an even bigger question, what role does Widmore have in this???

3rd, I am confused about there being two physical bodies of John Locke. In the final scene, there is Locke in the statue, and there is the body that has been carried around by Illana & Co. The one that appears to be 'possesed' or taken over seems to have a physical presence, unlike a smokie or ghost sort of presence. But yet there is also another physical body of John Locke. How can there be two?

4th, Ironmaiden1973, I am very disappointed in you...

[LostFreak21]

OK this might not be anything but when Locke's Dad needed his kidney did he really need his kidney for himself or did he need the kidney for another reason? Could his kidney be put in someone else for them to become him/Locke?

[Workman]

This find does require some thought. I have one problem with John being dead when he fell from the building. I think to prove he survived the fall, TPTB made him paralyzed. But, it does seem John's body became a host after the plane crash, and it got stronger after Ben killed him. I think, you can still only die once in this show lol.
I am still pondering on how and why John and Ben said almost the same sentence. There has got to be more to Ben than we have been analyzing. Maybe it's whatever happened to him in the Temple? Did he become a host too? Was this point in Ben's life the same as the point in John's life when he fell? I am going to stop, I am starting to ramble my thoughts.


That's the answer. Whatever happened to Ben in the Temple probably would explain that conversation. One of the big questions I've had is exactly how long has MiB been John Locke? We'll find out next season I guess.


Some of it was plausible but after Jacob touched Locke after his dad had him exit through the window, he was still present and walked away from John and said that he was going to be ok or something like that. So if Jacob was now in John, who was filling in for jacob as he walked away from him. jacob performed the miracle on him by bringing him back from the dead. So maybe Locke is back but is being possessed by trhe smoke monster just as Roussea's team was possessed by the smoke monster or actually was the smoke monster and the team was already dead. I am sticking with my first thought that the smoke monster somehow possessed them and Locke after his resurrection in the new flesh. Richard said that John looked different somehow. The purpose that Locke spoke of was to kill jacob. Only person/thing we know who wanted to kill Jaocb was told to us in the first sceen of the Finale. The no-name guy in the black shirt who refused to eat a freshly caught and cookd fish. I wonderwhat he ate before visiting Jacob.


I'm sure it was wild boar. The same thing that Locke slabbed on the beach in front of Richard when he came back to the others.

[Lost in Lost]

I think he put a fraction of his essence in each one. I believe he touched 8 people like the 8 spokes of the wheel. When they all come together it will enable him to be reconstituted (for the lack of a better word).

Now that's interesting. As in, he knew his enemy (man in black) will find a loophole and this is defense of that?

[MrEchoLives]

I believe the 8 people being touched theory holds more water than the locke tranferred to ben theory. If locke were dead(strangled by ben),then Jacob jumps into bens body, that doesnt sound right. That means that at any time Jacob can jump into someone elses body,even if they are alive, and take over? Sounds too freaky. Dead,yes...but alive,no
But i will say that Locke is a little suspect from the very beginning of the show. Knows a little too much. But i dont think this theory is the reason

[imascootinspook]

Mikhail's antics makes me question this...

True, but then....were we really watching the "real" Mikhail all of this time die over and over again, or were we watching him die once in each scenario that was played out? ooooh, that would mean there is away to bring back Charlie! lol.

[LincolnEcho06]

I'm not totally on board with the body snatching or soul possessing (whatever you want to call it). As far as I can tell, Jacob touching the Elite Eight was like tagging birds so they can be tracked.

Loophole to me means there is a way getting from A to C without going through B; call it a short-cut. I have not seen loophole as a scientific term.

I'm not sure about the language writing back on page 4 or 5 when people were writing messages in kling-on or Toilken elvish; not sure if I want to know. Guess I'll have to wait until MTV, VH-1, or E! does the story on Iron Maiden the band to get the true story.

I guess I don't have much of an answer, but it was Jacob that said to John Locke I guess you found your loophole (signaling a prior meeting - but they had not met before).

I think people calling alive Locke the anti-Locke is a bit weird, so I'm proposing the John Locke that is alive be called Grid. That way you get Grid Locke - haha (it can't be Grim Locke, because that is the tyrannosaurus rex transformer, leader of the dinobots).

[smthng2dowthlost]

Tagging em like birds so he could keep track I like that one

[beachblinkette]

I'm not totally on board with the body snatching or soul possessing (whatever you want to call it). As far as I can tell, Jacob touching the Elite Eight was like tagging birds so they can be tracked.

Loophole to me means there is a way getting from A to C without going through B; call it a short-cut. I have not seen loophole as a scientific term.

I'm not sure about the language writing back on page 4 or 5 when people were writing messages in kling-on or Toilken elvish; not sure if I want to know. Guess I'll have to wait until MTV, VH-1, or E! does the story on Iron Maiden the band to get the true story.

I guess I don't have much of an answer, but it was Jacob that said to John Locke I guess you found your loophole (signaling a prior meeting - but they had not met before).

I think people calling alive Locke the anti-Locke is a bit weird, so I'm proposing the John Locke that is alive be called Grid. That way you get Grid Locke - haha (it can't be Grim Locke, because that is the tyrannosaurus rex transformer, leader of the dinobots).

Speaking of tagging them like birds, has anyone researched the Phoenix or the Egyptian Bennu bird? It represented the god of time. The Bennu was said to live in the BenBen stone or obelisk. I think Notso mentioned an obelisk a while back. The Egyptian Phoenix/Bennu was considered to be the ba spirit of the sun God Ra. It lived hundreds of years, and was reborn in the ashes after being burned in the fire.

There's also a legend connecting the phoenix to the Greek god Phoebus Apollo. Jacob was seen eating an Apollo bar. Red and gold are its colors like the fish. It was pictured sometimes as a heron--a fishing bird. He also has Greek and Egyptian writing or symbols on his tapestry. And a very convenient fire pit. Maybe John or whoever is "coming" will be reborn as the Phoenix. I don't really see the soul/body switching idea, no offense, but hey, if this about a rebirth or a resurrection who knows? Interesting ideas as always, you all!!

[LincolnEcho06]

Speaking of tagging them like birds, has anyone researched the Phoenix or the Egyptian Bennu bird? It represented the god of time. The Bennu was said to live in the BenBen stone or obelisk. I think Notso mentioned an obelisk a while back. The Egyptian Phoenix/Bennu was considered to be the ba spirit of the sun God Ra. It lived hundreds of years, and was reborn in the ashes after being burned in the fire.

There's also a legend connecting the phoenix to the Greek god Phoebus Apollo. Jacob was seen eating an Apollo bar. Red and gold are its colors like the fish. It was pictured sometimes as a heron--a fishing bird. He also has Greek and Egyptian writing or symbols on his tapestry. And a very convenient fire pit. Maybe John or whoever is "coming" will be reborn as the Phoenix. I don't really see the soul/body switching idea, no offense, but hey, if this about a rebirth or a resurrection who knows? Interesting ideas as always, you all!!

I think somebody by the name of NewAgeMessiah is the one to ask about Ancient Egypt info, at least from my recollection they seemed to be a well of knowledge on Ancient Egypt. Personal research works too, but asking somebody else for the answer seems faster.

[losttime]

he gave sawyer a pen after sawyers parents funeral, if thats not a good enough touch then I guess he didnt touch hurley either.

he physically touched hurley placing his hand near his left shoulder before getting out of the taxi

[gingergrant]

Notso, This is a great theory and thread. IronMaiden will probably flame me for saying that!

smthng2dowthlost, I really like the idea of tagging for following.

Trying to think of all of the times that someone has touched a dying/dead person and then had radically changed personality. Ben strangling Locke(Jacob) after getting him to not kill himself comes to mind.

[notsolost42]

Notso, This is a great theory and thread. IronMaiden will probably flame me for saying that!

smthng2dowthlost, I really like the idea of tagging for following.

Trying to think of all of the times that someone has touched a dying/dead person and then had radically changed personality. Ben strangling Locke(Jacob) after getting him to not kill himself comes to mind.

Exactly and at that point Locke was Jacob in part and when Ben touched him he became Jacob? Possibly. Another idea is that Ben became Jacob when he stabbed him and Jacob grabbed on to him.

[gingergrant]

I forgot that Jacob grabbed Ben. But then Locke/Jacob was the one who threw Jacob into the fire (what gives?)

[notsolost42]

I forgot that Jacob grabbed Ben. But then Locke/Jacob was the one who threw Jacob into the fire (what gives?)

Destroying his mortal body? Trying to keep him from transferring to Ben? So many questions!!!!!!!

[gingergrant]

That would make sense.

Sort of like it makes more sense that Ben would talk Locke/Jacob out of killing himself and then kill him anyway, because then he would be touching him as he died (to transfer).

Does that mean when Smokey killed Keamy and then Keamy/smokie came back it might have been the anti-Jacob/Keamy that Ben killed and at that point became the anti-jacob/ben?

wait, I guess that I'm still confused a bit. Can't wait for next season.

[Desi420]

Notso, This is a great theory and thread. IronMaiden will probably flame me for saying that!

smthng2dowthlost, I really like the idea of tagging for following.

Trying to think of all of the times that someone has touched a dying/dead person and then had radically changed personality. Ben strangling Locke(Jacob) after getting him to not kill himself comes to mind.
Or when he turns out the light in the room after he leaves, he says "good by Locke, I'm really gonna miss you.... I really mean that"

[chester]

(copied from the 'Announcements' section, by poster "Randy")

“Lost” Multicontributor Collection

We are seeking proposals for articles about the television show LOST for an upcoming volume to be published by McFarland. Beginning with an archetypal premise of castaways stranded on an island, LOST has evolved into a complex network of obscure connections, esoteric mysteries, literary and pop cultural allusions, and baroque experiments in narrative temporality. The defining feature of the show is its atmosphere of radical suggestibility; the narrative and thematic strands of the story continually run away into hyper-interpretability in a way that invites not only the kind of internet speculation which has flourished around the show, but also the application of more theoretically informed critical examination.

“Lost” has drawn considerable interest from academic circles and has already been the subject of a Blackwell “Lost and Philosophy” volume and a new release from IB Tauris titled “Reading Lost.” A major limitation of these texts is that they are out of date by the time they hit the shelves. The most conspicuous feature of “Lost” is its persistently evolving plot, which is continually rewriting itself. In the season that is currently unfolding in March of 2009, the characters are actually going back in time to redefine, if not completely change, what has already happened in the narrative of the show. Print media are poorly equipped to compete with this kind of rapid-fire revisionism.

Unlike most television shows, however, “Lost” is writing toward a conclusion that it has scheduled in advance to arrive in May of 2010. The volume we are compiling for McFarland looks at a publication date around or shortly after that time, to coincide with the finale of the show. This timing not only allows the contributing authors to articulate readings of the show which acknowledge the entire arc of its narrative, but also takes advantage of the public and academic interest which will likely be at its height immediately following the conclusion of the program.

Of particular interest are proposals which consider “Lost” within the background of emerging 21st Century concerns such as:
globalization and its discontents
torture and terrorism
ecological consciousness
postapocalypticism and posthumanism
magic and technoscience
postcolonial territorialities
tribalism and multiculturalism
intertextuality and self-referentiality
“the state of nature” in the postnatural world
the ontological dynamics of communications media
field-based models of signification and narrative.

Send 250-300-word abstracts to Randy Laist, University of Connecticut, rlaist2000@yahoo.com
Please include with your abstract: your name, affiliation, and postal address.
Deadline: April 30, 2009

[InTheBeginning]

“Lost” Multicontributor Collection

We are seeking proposals...
Deadline: April 30, 2009

I think I remember seeing you post that a while back, too bad the deadline has passed! Now that this season's finale has come and gone, there are tons of new ideas/theories we could have sent them.

[chester]

I think I remember seeing you post that a while back, too bad the deadline has passed! Now that this season's finale has come and gone, there are tons of new ideas/theories we could have sent them.

It's not my post. I just copied it from the 'Announcements' section. It just shows that there is plenty in this show for those who like to think. Sorry, yeah the deadline has past. But there are many more universities that are running courses and give credit for studying LOST.

[InTheBeginning]

It's not my post. I just copied it from the 'Announcements' section. It just shows that there is plenty in this show for those who like to think. Sorry, yeah the deadline has past. But there are many more universities that are running courses and give credit for studying LOST.

I just remember seeing it, and somehow 'attached' it to you in my head wen I was it again. I've heard about schools offering classes in LOST theory etc... pretty cool if you ask me. We could do the same here? See the HOLY *** thread.

[7stringking]

That doesn't make sense because Smokie 'knew' Ben was planning to try and kill John again after the Aijira crash....So it would seem that smokie is semi omniscient, which would 'probably' mean that this theory is not going to pan out.

Interesting about Jacob keeping John alive after he was pushed out by Anthony Cooper though.On the other hand, he distracted Sayid and got Nadia killed, so I'm not really sure what to think of Jacob.

[7stringking]

“Lost” Multicontributor Collection

We are seeking proposals for articles about the television show LOST for an upcoming volume to be published by McFarland. Beginning with an archetypal premise of castaways stranded on an island, LOST has evolved into a complex network of obscure connections, esoteric mysteries, literary and pop cultural allusions, and baroque experiments in narrative temporality. The defining feature of the show is its atmosphere of radical suggestibility; the narrative and thematic strands of the story continually run away into hyper-interpretability in a way that invites not only the kind of internet speculation which has flourished around the show, but also the application of more theoretically informed critical examination.

“Lost” has drawn considerable interest from academic circles and has already been the subject of a Blackwell “Lost and Philosophy” volume and a new release from IB Tauris titled “Reading Lost.” A major limitation of these texts is that they are out of date by the time they hit the shelves. The most conspicuous feature of “Lost” is its persistently evolving plot, which is continually rewriting itself. In the season that is currently unfolding in March of 2009, the characters are actually going back in time to redefine, if not completely change, what has already happened in the narrative of the show. Print media are poorly equipped to compete with this kind of rapid-fire revisionism.

Unlike most television shows, however, “Lost” is writing toward a conclusion that it has scheduled in advance to arrive in May of 2010. The volume we are compiling for McFarland looks at a publication date around or shortly after that time, to coincide with the finale of the show. This timing not only allows the contributing authors to articulate readings of the show which acknowledge the entire arc of its narrative, but also takes advantage of the public and academic interest which will likely be at its height immediately following the conclusion of the program.

Of particular interest are proposals which consider “Lost” within the background of emerging 21st Century concerns such as:
globalization and its discontents
torture and terrorism
ecological consciousness
postapocalypticism and posthumanism
magic and technoscience
postcolonial territorialities
tribalism and multiculturalism
intertextuality and self-referentiality
“the state of nature” in the postnatural world
the ontological dynamics of communications media
field-based models of signification and narrative.

Send 250-300-word abstracts to Randy Laist, University of Connecticut, rlaist2000@yahoo.com
Please include with your abstract: your name, affiliation, and postal address.
Deadline: April 30, 2009


Interesting...

I have long thought(although I love the show) that LOST is sort of a New World Order propaganda piece...


Torture has been a very major theme in LOST.....Bioweapon attacks(The Purge, plus Ben was going to release the gas to kill the Keamy Krew).....A very major effort to promote multiculturalism...People having to adapt to less than ideal circumstances(think the current financial meltdown)...

I am sure if I went back to my notes I could show MANY more examples of either themes or propaganda that seem to mirror the globalists 'plan' for our world.

Perhaps this is all unintentional by the creators, but considering the amount of subtle things going on that they have put into the show...............

[Brother Desmond]

Sooooo, anyway, to get back to the actual dialogue of this thread....does anyone have any ideas why John Locke said the same thing about smokie that Ben said...only alot earlier?

I really wouldn't read to much into this. A lot of people have referred to Smokie as the "monster" No one knows exactly what Smokie is, so they use the term "monster" as a reference point.

Hurley makes a comment about Smokie being a monster in season 1. "That thing in the jungle, maybe its a monster, maybe it's a pissed of giraffe."

Sayid, when captured by Rousseau, tells her not to go outside because the noise they heard could be the "monster." She replies that there are no such things as monster. This conversation also takes place in season 1.

[chester]

I really wouldn't read to much into this. A lot of people have referred to Smokie as the "monster" No one knows exactly what Smokie is, so they use the term "monster" as a reference point.

Hurley makes a comment about Smokie being a monster in season 1. "That thing in the jungle, maybe its a monster, maybe it's a pissed of giraffe."

Sayid, when captured by Rousseau, tells her not to go outside because the noise they heard could be the "monster." She replies that there are no such things as monster. This conversation also takes place in season 1.

Great points, Brother.

[HotPocket]

I think he put a fraction of his essence in each one. I believe he touched 8 people like the 8 spokes of the wheel. When they all come together it will enable him to be reconstituted (for the lack of a better word).

Oh! I like this idea although this is my spin on it...
If anyone has read Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows they'll know whats up. So remember how Voldermort did the whole Horcrux thing? This is what I think Jacob might have been doing with our Losties...he did put a little bit of himself in each one and, in Voldermorts case, he couldn't die until all the Horcruxs were destroyed. Although, I hope this doesn't need to happen in our Losties case. But Esau (or whatever we're calling him) is just trying to catch up to Jacob and by taking over deadlockes body he can finally start killing parts of Jacob. But I dont want anyone else to die, just an idea!

[notsolost42]

I really wouldn't read to much into this. A lot of people have referred to Smokie as the "monster" No one knows exactly what Smokie is, so they use the term "monster" as a reference point.

Hurley makes a comment about Smokie being a monster in season 1. "That thing in the jungle, maybe its a monster, maybe it's a pissed of giraffe."

Sayid, when captured by Rousseau, tells her not to go outside because the noise they heard could be the "monster." She replies that there are no such things as monster. This conversation also takes place in season 1.

That they both called it a monster was not exactly my point Brother Des....it was the fact that both John Locke and Benjamin Linus both claimed or eluded to not having a name for it at all but that other people referred to it as a monster. The monster part was the least important part of it. The fact that they both claimed there was no name for it was what was most interesting. And the way John Locke disassociated himself from the rest of the survivors in saying "the people on the beach call it a monster" was quite interesting. Ben said it because he is an Other and the Others have no name for it. See the difference?

[woogie]

That they both called it a monster was not exactly my point Brother Des....it was the fact that both John Locke and Benjamin Linus both claimed or eluded to not having a name for it at all but that other people referred to it as a monster. The monster part was the least important part of it. The fact that they both claimed there was no name for it was what was most interesting. And the way John Locke disassociated himself from the rest of the survivors in saying "the people on the beach call it a monster" was quite interesting. Ben said it because he is an Other and the Others have no name for it. See the difference?

The first time reading your post I didn't really see what you were getting at but this post makes sense. It is interesting that they both refer to the monster as having no name. I don't really get the "Jacob transfer" parts though. Once Jacob transfered to Locke...what "essence" remains in the old Jacob's body and why would he end up back in the statue?? And the event of Jacob meeting Hurley was after Locke fell from the building...the old Jacob was still doing things...?

[Foro777]

I think he put a fraction of his essence in each one. I believe he touched 8 people like the 8 spokes of the wheel. When they all come together it will enable him to be reconstituted (for the lack of a better word).

This is actually brilliant. In Egyptian mythology when Osiris is killed, Set cuts him into pieces and when the pieces are brought back together he is resurrected (like Voltron!! :p) Anyways here's a short description I found (Seth=Set; notice the "judging" involved towards the end):

Osiris became the most prominent god in the middle and new kingdoms among the common people of Egypt. In Osiris, the people saw the possibility that all Egyptians have the chance of an afterlife, not just the Pharaoh, which was commonly believed durning the Old Kingdom period.

The story of Osiris is very well know in Egyptian religion. Osiris was believed to be an early Egyptian king according to the myth. He brought to the Egyptians civilization and agriculture. His brother, Seth, desired the throne of Egypt and plotted to have Osiris killed.

Seth plotted with many in Osiris's court to remove Osiris from the throne. Seth hatched his plot with a special chest. He had the chest made to the exact measurements of Osiris. He then held a contest with the members of Osiris's court to see who would fit best in the chest. The winner could have the very beautiful chest. After some convincing by Seth and the other conspirators, Osiris tried the chest. Once inside, Seth nailed the lid and threw the chest into the Nile river where Osiris died. The chest went down the Nile and into the Mediterranean Sea, finding a resting place in Syria.

Isis, Osiris's wife, searched the entire land to find his body. Finally, she discovered it hidden under a tree in Syria on the way to visit the King of Phoenicians. She took it back to Egypt and hid the body. Unfortunately, Seth discovered the body by accident on a hunting trip and dismembered it into fourteen separate parts. Seth then spread Osiris's body all over Egypt.

Isis collected his body together and magically brought Osiris back to life. But Osiris could not stay; he was already part of the afterlife and could not leave the underworld.

Isis magically conceived a child by Osiris. Their child was Horus, who vowed to avenge his father's death and reclaim the thrown of Egypt. Horus fought a very long and bloody battle against Seth. Finally, the issue came before a tribunal of the gods. This tribunal ruled in favor of Osiris and Horus. Osiris was resurrected to become the King of the Underworld. This story became a symbol of family values and good over evil.

Notice that Osiris stood for enabling everyone a chance at the afterlife; kinda like how Jacob believes everyone has a choice. :D

[t33h33]

That doesn't make sense because Smokie 'knew' Ben was planning to try and kill John again after the Aijira crash....So it would seem that smokie is semi omniscient, which would 'probably' mean that this theory is not going to pan out.

Interesting about Jacob keeping John alive after he was pushed out by Anthony Cooper though.On the other hand, he distracted Sayid and got Nadia killed, so I'm not really sure what to think of Jacob.

maybe we're going to see a people are good and bad but they have objectives and choices? you see jacob banging on about choices and locke in season one. Also many of the 'good guys' have seen bad because of their primary objective so maybe we're just seeing that part of it? Also maybe Locke had a first good encounter with smokie to make him think he was part of something more if he was always going to be a pawn in someones horrible game:(

[Brother Desmond]

That they both called it a monster was not exactly my point Brother Des....it was the fact that both John Locke and Benjamin Linus both claimed or eluded to not having a name for it at all but that other people referred to it as a monster. The monster part was the least important part of it. The fact that they both claimed there was no name for it was what was most interesting. And the way John Locke disassociated himself from the rest of the survivors in saying "the people on the beach call it a monster" was quite interesting. Ben said it because he is an Other and the Others have no name for it. See the difference?

I see what you are saying. But just because Ben and John don't have a name for the "monster" doesn't mean they are subjects of a body-snatching conspiracy. Like you said, the Others don't have a name for it, so have they all been subjected to the body-snatching you suggest in your OP?

And to tell you the truth, personally, I don't find John disassociating himself from the rest of the survivors to be interesting. He has disassociated himself from the beginning. Since being on the Island, John has acted more like and Other than a Survivor. You could probably make a case for John acting more like an Other than some of the actual Others. The fact that John and Ben don't have a name for the "monster" means that they have the same views on the subject, to me at least.

[beachblinkette]

Something's going on with these bodies and spirits or whatever they all are. I sure hope they won't make it so complicated that like that Abbot and Costello gag (Who's on first) we'll be chasing our tails for weeks! It's the ouroborus!!

[yokogleeton]

Something thats had me thinking....

The Man in Black (i've been calling him Dread Pirate Roberts, but MiB will work here) cannot kill Jacob directly.

Ben cannot kill Charles Whidmore (said so when he visited Charles to tell him he was going to kill Penny).

Ben CAN kill Jacob.

So why does the "rule" apply to Jacob/MiB and Ben/Charles exclusively?

[notsolost42]

I see what you are saying. But just because Ben and John don't have a name for the "monster" doesn't mean they are subjects of a body-snatching conspiracy. Like you said, the Others don't have a name for it, so have they all been subjected to the body-snatching you suggest in your OP?

And to tell you the truth, personally, I don't find John disassociating himself from the rest of the survivors to be interesting. He has disassociated himself from the beginning. Since being on the Island, John has acted more like and Other than a Survivor. You could probably make a case for John acting more like an Other than some of the actual Others. The fact that John and Ben don't have a name for the "monster" means that they have the same views on the subject, to me at least.

Again, that's my point Bro Des!!! I don't think that John Locke was really John Locke from the beginning now....I've rewatched several epis now on sci-fi and he seems to be more like Jacob or antiJacob than John Locke. Maybe when Jacob touched him after he fell out of the window, and brought him back to life, he gave a part of himself to John and then John wasn't really John again. It seems that John Locke was manipulating a great deal towards and end goal. That's what I'm getting on the rewatches anyway. Like he's playing a great big game of chess with the survivors being the pieces or something. Now, you've mentioned that John Locke seemed to act more like an Other than a survivor, right? So, I completly agree with that and that's because I don't think he is John Locke from the get go.

[smthng2dowthlost]

With all the time john locke was confused crying and lost (had to:)) I don't see him being someone else the whole time why would this other guy cry and bang his fists into the hatch? or cry when his legs stopped working with boone that one time and that time with kate and michael? All these instances were consequences to locke wavering in his faith in the island, so this other guy manipulated locke making him think he was on the right track and when he wavered was punished because without his faith in the island surely he wouldn't have died like the other guy wanted him to. Just my opinion on the subject but you never know what TPTB are going to do.

[notsolost42]

With all the time john locke was confused crying and lost (had to:)) I don't see him being someone else the whole time why would this other guy cry and bang his fists into the hatch? or cry when his legs stopped working with boone that one time and that time with kate and michael? All these instances were consequences to locke wavering in his faith in the island, so this other guy manipulated locke making him think he was on the right track and when he wavered was punished because without his faith in the island surely he wouldn't have died like the other guy wanted him to. Just my opinion on the subject but you never know what TPTB are going to do.

And why would John Locke steal C-4 out of the Flame before he blew it up and claim he had no idea that there was any explosives in there? And then, procede to use the C-4 to blow up the sub....it's like he knew exactly what he was doing and why he was doing it....

[smthng2dowthlost]

he felt that they were "cheating" I don't see how that means he's the other guy. The first time locke hears about the sub he seems suprised if he's the other guy I think he would know sinse they have been using the sub sinse at least 73 maybe he didn't notice all the people coming and going for 30 years even though that seems to be the thing he hates most. And just a thought but if locke was always this other guy who did they see in the cabin?since it wasn't jacob because "he hasn't been here for some time" "someone else has been using it" Just thoughts like I said nobody knows where they are going to take this.

[notsolost42]

he felt that they were "cheating" I don't see how that means he's the other guy. The first time locke hears about the sub he seems suprised if he's the other guy I think he would know sinse they have been using the sub sinse at least 73 maybe he didn't notice all the people coming and going for 30 years even though that seems to be the thing he hates most. And just a thought but if locke was always this other guy who did they see in the cabin?since it wasn't jacob because "he hasn't been here for some time" "someone else has been using it" Just thoughts like I said nobody knows where they are going to take this.

I am looking at it like this; Jacob touched our losties when they were young inm order to guide them to the island. They were chosen. So to me, if Jacob or antiJacob is John Locke from the crash forward, he is just using his knowledge to keep them on the island. That was John's goal. He did not want anyone to leave. That is why he blew up the Flame, the sub, etc. I don't see it as any kind of altruistic approach to his faith at all. I see it as him fulfilling his own plans. We all have our own opinions.

[smthng2dowthlost]

Wouldn't the other guy want them all off the island? at least that's what I got from the beach scene. My point is john locke could have wanted the sub blown up cause he didn't want people to leave that could have been his own plan it doesn't necessarily mean he's been the other guy the whole time.

Good to have you back discussions lately have been a little thin.

[notsolost42]

Wouldn't the other guy want them all off the island? at least that's what I got from the beach scene. My point is john locke could have wanted the sub blown up cause he didn't want people to leave that could have been his own plan it doesn't necessarily mean he's been the other guy the whole time.

Good to have you back discussions lately have been a little thin.

:oThanks...that's a real nice thing to say.
As far as Jacob and antiJacob, I think they are each trying to prove their point so no, neither of them would want anyone to leave the island. If the survivors left then neither of them could be proven right or wrong. It seems that is their eons long debate...they come, they conquer, they destroy...something like that from antiJacob. Perhaps Jacob has always brought people to the island to prove his point....or try to anyway!

[smthng2dowthlost]

that is a good point proving himself right is better than just killing jacob I like it

[Snape]

Well, to the OP, I think your thinking is dead on. It may not ultimately be true, but you have thought it out exquisitely and I find no holes in your logic. And here's more support for your theory:

The creators had said (I believe back in Season 3 sometime) regarding Jacob, "You have seen him, but he had a non-speaking role."

This led many people to speculate it was Vincent (in retrospect, major lols) and since the revelation of Jacob in the last episode of Season 5, I couldn't reconcile their statement in the previous paragraph. But with your theory, I can TOTALLY see that now. Thank you, and I'm gonna spread the word and see what my RL "Lostie friends" think.

[Snape]

Oh, and also this: remember in Season 1 when John had an encounter with Smokie? It flashed WHITE at him (not like any other person's encounter) and later on, when asked about it, he said "I have seen the heart of this Island, and what I saw was beautiful." or something to that effect (I probably have the word "heart" wrong).

I have tried to reconcile why the Smoke Monster treated him differently and with the OP's theory, well, now I have an answer. I love this theory.

[notsolost42]

Oh, and also this: remember in Season 1 when John had an encounter with Smokie? It flashed WHITE at him (not like any other person's encounter) and later on, when asked about it, he said "I have seen the heart of this Island, and what I saw was beautiful." or something to that effect (I probably have the word "heart" wrong).

I have tried to reconcile why the Smoke Monster treated him differently and with the OP's theory, well, now I have an answer. I love this theory.

Hey Snape! Long time no see! Glad you're here! So....pray tell...what's the theory? Share please....

[smthng2dowthlost]

I could be wrong but didn't the monster flash a light at kate and juliet when they were hand cuffed together like it was scanning them, I think the non speaking role quote was only for the first episode. It also could have treated him differently if the smoke is the other guy(I'm not really convinced) but that could have just been when it/they started the killing jacob loophole plot when it read locke and found out he was very easily manipulated.

[3d-aholic]

I am looking at it like this; Jacob touched our losties when they were young inm order to guide them to the island. They were chosen.
Why do you think this? Why do you think he touched them and it guided them to the island? I don't understand your entire premise. Are you talking about the touching scenes in the last episode?

[Snape]

Hey Snape! Long time no see! Glad you're here! So....pray tell...what's the theory? Share please....

First off, I always troll these forums, but I only add something if it's useful (ooooh burned). :D

Second, the theory is the one espoused in the opening post of this thread - in a nutshell [although you could just go read the first post]:

When John fell out of the window, Jacob touched him. John actually died THERE and Jacob went inside him and the Locke we've seen on the Island (not necessarily in flashbacks - that could be old John) is actually Jacob in Locke's body!

Some things I still need to think about: What actually happened in Jacob's cabin with Ben/Locke? Why would that voice say "Help me"? Whose voice was it? And what about Locke leaving the Island when he turned the wheel? What would Jacob have done off the Island, etc.? Without having thought through these, the OP's theory might be preposterous but it least it does have preliminary merit.

[3d-aholic]

It makes no sense at all to me.
John Locke is not possessed in the first place....

But, now we are suppose to believe he was possessed the "entire" show. :rolleyes:
Why...just because he was touched and regained consciousness after a tramatic event that rendered him unconscious (which is fairly typical actually)
He is clueless in Season 1 and most of Season 2.

Then his dead body shows up in the last episode...I guess its somehow didn't rot for like the first 4.9 seasons....and 4.5 years its been sitting on the beach or in the jungle.

Anything is possible in this show...but they going to have to make up alot of ground in one season to connect those dots.

[notsolost42]

It makes no sense at all to me.
John Locke is not possessed in the first place....

But, now we are suppose to believe he was possessed the "entire" show. :rolleyes:
Why...just because he was touched and regained consciousness after a tramatic event that rendered him unconscious (which is fairly typical actually)
He is clueless in Season 1 and most of Season 2.

Then his dead body shows up in the last episode...I guess its somehow didn't rot for like the first 4.9 seasons....and 4.5 years its been sitting on the beach or in the jungle.

Anything is possible in this show...but they going to have to make up alot of ground in one season to connect those dots.

If you follow the mirror world theory then it completly explains the two Locke's. That's pretty simple. Now, what is fairly typical about falling from an eight story window and being unconscious? Nothing. Typically, it would kill you. And that is why I said that Jacob's touch revived Locke to life. I believe that when Jacob touched everyone, he left a little bit of his essense, for lack of better words, inside of each of them. I fully believe that John Locke died from the fall and that he was "taken over" by Jacob at that point. I really don't see so much ground that has to be made up at all to connect the dots...

[notsolost42]

First off, I always troll these forums, but I only add something if it's useful (ooooh burned). :D

Second, the theory is the one espoused in the opening post of this thread - in a nutshell [although you could just go read the first post]:

When John fell out of the window, Jacob touched him. John actually died THERE and Jacob went inside him and the Locke we've seen on the Island (not necessarily in flashbacks - that could be old John) is actually Jacob in Locke's body!

Some things I still need to think about: What actually happened in Jacob's cabin with Ben/Locke? Why would that voice say "Help me"? Whose voice was it? And what about Locke leaving the Island when he turned the wheel? What would Jacob have done off the Island, etc.? Without having thought through these, the OP's theory might be preposterous but it least it does have preliminary merit.


Well snap, Snape! That's the last compliment you'll get from me!:D I think that it was the antiJacob in the cabin...quite possibly. It was a trick to set him free. What is the OP theory?

[wiley]

Well snap, Snape! That's the last compliment you'll get from me!:D I think that it was the antiJacob in the cabin...quite possibly. It was a trick to set him free. What is the OP theory?

It is your theory. Original Poster or Opening Post.

[notsolost42]

It is your theory. Original Poster or Opening Post.

Thanks Wiley....I didn't understand "OP" theory.....yes, I did start this post! lol. I guess I am the OP theorist! lol.

[mevil314]

I just think lock said that at the time because he had had a different experience with smokie, he didn't consider it a monster, by series four he was calling it the monster, he asked ben when he was tied up, the only possible solution to maybe his body changing from season3 to season 4 would be when ben shot him in the dharma pit, but i wasn't really shocked when I read this, we know at this point they didn't even have an end point so i can't attribute little pieces of dialogue in early season 3 to the bigger plan

[Don'tWantLostToEndAtS6!!]

Notso, love your findings. I've re-watched the series few times and heard the quote few times but it just never caught it that they were the exact same quote. Nice one :)

[the son of jacob]

Yea thats interesting notsolost42 or whatever your name is lol no offence intended. It also explains how locke could listen to the island. Ala the island told him at what time and what location he would find himself staggering out of the jungle with the bullet in his leg. But it does seem a bit too complicated. Plus if part of john had been Jacob since he was pushed out of the window then why would he need answers from ben? Why would he doubt jacob even existed? I think john died when ben killed him, the john we see now is the man in black who was with jacob when the blackrock first arrived. I think of him as jacobs nemesis. The thing im trying to figure out is weather jacob is good or bad! By the fact that he wore white and his nemesis wore black, and by the fact that he was the one who brought new people to the island and the way he saved locke, bought kate a lunch box, gave sawer a pen etc makes me think he"s good, plus the christian name. "theres only one end, everything up until that is progress" sounds like a goody to me lol. Also did you notice that when he visited the losties in the flashbacks he touched everyone of them Jesus style. But how much power does jacob have?? I mean we where lead to believe that he controlled the island and was all powerful but then he lets ben just stroll up and kill him! strange me thinks. It just seems like jacob intended on ben killing him and its some sort of sacrifice that will be for the greater good. Ah i dont know, but thats the good part eh. Should i have started a new tread or something for this? First time posting people be patience. ps ive noticed its mostly americans on here so you"ll be up when im in bed and vice versa but id welcome any responce or private massages about lost. thanx a bunch ladys n gents.

[yokogleeton]

Yea thats interesting notsolost42 or whatever your name is lol no offence intended. It also explains how locke could listen to the island. Ala the island told him at what time and what location he would find himself staggering out of the jungle with the bullet in his leg. But it does seem a bit too complicated. Plus if part of john had been Jacob since he was pushed out of the window then why would he need answers from ben? Why would he doubt jacob even existed? I think john died when ben killed him, the john we see now is the man in black who was with jacob when the blackrock first arrived. I think of him as jacobs nemesis. The thing im trying to figure out is weather jacob is good or bad! By the fact that he wore white and his nemesis wore black, and by the fact that he was the one who brought new people to the island and the way he saved locke, bought kate a lunch box, gave sawer a pen etc makes me think he"s good, plus the christian name. "theres only one end, everything up until that is progress" sounds like a goody to me lol. Also did you notice that when he visited the losties in the flashbacks he touched everyone of them Jesus style. But how much power does jacob have?? I mean we where lead to believe that he controlled the island and was all powerful but then he lets ben just stroll up and kill him! strange me thinks. It just seems like jacob intended on ben killing him and its some sort of sacrifice that will be for the greater good. Ah i dont know, but thats the good part eh. Should i have started a new tread or something for this? First time posting people be patience. ps ive noticed its mostly americans on here so you"ll be up when im in bed and vice versa but id welcome any responce or private massages about lost. thanx a bunch ladys n gents.

good discourse there. couple things.

i'm on the team that thinks Locke didn't die until ben strangled him. Jacob conveniently got to him after his 8 story fall just before the body could expire, so it wasnt a resurrection, just a saving grace.

While i do think Jacob's touch brought Locke to the island, I do not think that is why he was able to "see into" it. Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Sun and Jin werent seeing into the eye of the island, or at least weren't claiming to. I think everything we saw Locke do in the first 3-4 seasons was all due to his interpretations of the visions and messages he was being given. The questions is was it Black or Jacob that sent the messages? Either way there was most certainly something pointing John in the directions he went, hence the frustration/anger Ben constantly exploited when he couldn't figure out what to do next.

I'm glad you mentioned sacrifice. It's been a theme over the entire show. Boone was the sacrifice the island demanded, John was a sacrifice, Whidmore speaks of sacrifice, and I think Richard did too. So why should we not imagine that perhaps Jacob was sacrificing himself? We may be off on this one, but i'm thinking that the death of Jacob isn't what it seems.

[Brother Desmond]

Again, that's my point Bro Des!!! I don't think that John Locke was really John Locke from the beginning now....I've rewatched several epis now on sci-fi and he seems to be more like Jacob or antiJacob than John Locke. Maybe when Jacob touched him after he fell out of the window, and brought him back to life, he gave a part of himself to John and then John wasn't really John again. It seems that John Locke was manipulating a great deal towards and end goal. That's what I'm getting on the rewatches anyway. Like he's playing a great big game of chess with the survivors being the pieces or something. Now, you've mentioned that John Locke seemed to act more like an Other than a survivor, right? So, I completly agree with that and that's because I don't think he is John Locke from the get go.

I think John Locke was always John Locke, (until Ben killed him), and the reason John seemed more like anti-Jacob or Jacob, from the beginning, is because he was being manipulated by anti-Jacob from the beginning.

I think anti-Jacob saw an opportunity for his loophole, and began to manipulate John to his own ends. The best evidence of this is when John is looking for Jacob's cabin. He has a dream, leading him to the DI pit where he finds the blueprints in Horace's pocket. The blueprints take him to the cabin where John is told that he must move the Island. We all know what happens from here: Ben turns the wheel, Island skips through time, John turns the wheel, is killed off-Island by Ben, is taken back to the Island where he is "reserructed"

Also, and interesting side-note - In the beginning of the season 5 finale, anti-Jacob makes it clear he doesn't want people coming to the Island. John Locke also doesn't want people coming to, or leaving the Island, (probably for fear of bringing other people back, in my opinion.) If John Locke was Jacob, or Jacob was John Locke, or John Locke has a little part of Jacob in him, wouldn't he be okay with people coming to the Island as Jacob is?

[yokogleeton]

I think John Locke was always John Locke, (until Ben killed him), and the reason John seemed more like anti-Jacob or Jacob, from the beginning, is because he was being manipulated by anti-Jacob from the beginning.

I think anti-Jacob saw an opportunity for his loophole, and began to manipulate John to his own ends. The best evidence of this is when John is looking for Jacob's cabin. He has a dream, leading him to the DI pit where he finds the blueprints in Horace's pocket. The blueprints take him to the cabin where John is told that he must move the Island. We all know what happens from here: Ben turns the wheel, Island skips through time, John turns the wheel, is killed off-Island by Ben, is taken back to the Island where he is "reserructed"

Also, and interesting side-note - In the beginning of the season 5 finale, anti-Jacob makes it clear he doesn't want people coming to the Island. John Locke also doesn't want people coming to, or leaving the Island, (probably for fear of bringing other people back, in my opinion.) If John Locke was Jacob, or Jacob was John Locke, or John Locke has a little part of Jacob in him, wouldn't he be okay with people coming to the Island as Jacob is?

BroDes, thank you for more eloquently saying what i was trying to get at.

Indeed i think "dark jacob" (or MiB or whatever) has been the one manipulating Locke, and exactly for the reason you mentioned. if no one can leave then they can't bring anyone back. As it was even the others started bringing people to the island. I can imagine it ticked 'ol black shirt off something fierce, hence such dramatic actions from Locke like blowing up the sub and the flame.

[3d-aholic]

I just think lock said that at the time because he had had a different experience with smokie, he didn't consider it a monster, by series four he was calling it the monster, he asked ben when he was tied up, the only possible solution to maybe his body changing from season3 to season 4 would be when ben shot him in the dharma pit, but i wasn't really shocked when I read this, we know at this point they didn't even have an end point so i can't attribute little pieces of dialogue in early season 3 to the bigger plan

Exactly. Its taking two pieces of nothing dialogue and a leap of faith to come up with something that really does not make that great of a story in the end. Demonic Possession...hardly. The writers are way past that. By the 3rd episode of Season 6...this whole demonic possession will be out the window....just like John Locke.

Now split personality, Id, ego, and super-ego...possibly...but its all parts of the same person.

[Brother Desmond]

BroDes, thank you for more eloquently saying what i was trying to get at.

Indeed i think "dark jacob" (or MiB or whatever) has been the one manipulating Locke, and exactly for the reason you mentioned. if no one can leave then they can't bring anyone back. As it was even the others started bringing people to the island. I can imagine it ticked 'ol black shirt off something fierce, hence such dramatic actions from Locke like blowing up the sub and the flame.

No problem at all. I would just like to thank work for being slow enough to allow me to put good thought into these threads. :)

[yokogleeton]

Exactly. Its taking two pieces of nothing dialogue and a leap of faith to come up with something that really does not make that great of a story in the end. Demonic Possession...hardly. The writers are way past that. By the 3rd episode of Season 6...this whole demonic possession will be out the window....just like John Locke.

Now split personality, Id, ego, and super-ego...possibly...but its all parts of the same person.

It's most likely not possession. its just a manifestation of John Locke by the MiB to get to Jacob. Which i think is why people (me included) think the MiB is smokey. Smokey has appeared as Walt, Yemi, most likely Montand and crew, and probably Christian...of course the only confirmed to be smokey would be Walt and Yemi, but it would stand to reason that where it was smokey once, it would be smokey every time. So digging back soemwhere into 9th grade geometric proofs...if a=b and a=c then b=c...or something like that....

-Smokey impersonates other people.
-The man in black is looking for a loophole and wants to kill jacob.
-Someone impersonating John Locke says he found his loophole and manipulates Ben into actually killing Jacob.

it works in my head, so someone please come shoot a bunch of holes in it so i can go back to the drawing board. :o

"out the window...just like John Locke" is it bad i laughed a little at that quote?

[ortrules]

Exactly. Its taking two pieces of nothing dialogue and a leap of faith to come up with something that really does not make that great of a story in the end. Demonic Possession...hardly. The writers are way past that. By the 3rd episode of Season 6...this whole demonic possession will be out the window....just like John Locke.

Now split personality, Id, ego, and super-ego...possibly...but its all parts of the same person.

I don't think anyone is implying some sort of demonic possession. Anti-Jacob is more like the smoke monster, having the ability to impersonate others, somewhat like a shape-shifter.

The biggest hint to Locke's death was the episode titled "Dead is Dead". It's not until now that we are able to understand what that title really implied: Locke is dead, you can't come back to life. Some people even managed to figure it out during that episode. Ben summons Smokie, but instead of Smokie coming out of the jungle, Locke walks out of the jungle.

[Pung]

And is strangely convenient that 'Locke' was absent during the entire "judgement" scene with ben in the temple.

[ortrules]

I think anti-Jacob saw an opportunity for his loophole, and began to manipulate John to his own ends. The best evidence of this is when John is looking for Jacob's cabin. He has a dream, leading him to the DI pit where he finds the blueprints in Horace's pocket. The blueprints take him to the cabin where John is told that he must move the Island. We all know what happens from here: Ben turns the wheel, Island skips through time, John turns the wheel, is killed off-Island by Ben, is taken back to the Island where he is "reserructed"

I think it goes even beyond this. I wouldn't be surprised to find out anti-Jacob is the reason Locke was able to walk again after crashing on the island. If you think about it, it fits perfectly. When the Others found out Locke could walk again after the crash that's what pretty much sealed the deal in their belief that he was their destined leader.

Richard even told Jack in the 70s that he didn't see anything special about Locke.

Edit: It's also funny to think about all those times on the island that Locke suddenly lost his ability to walk. I'm thinking mostly of the time Boone climbed to the beech craft and ended up dying. Was that anti-Jacob's way of saving Locke to continue using him?

[yokogleeton]

I don't think anyone is implying some sort of demonic possession. Anti-Jacob is more like the smoke monster, having the ability to impersonate others, somewhat like a shape-shifter.

The biggest hint to Locke's death was the episode titled "Dead is Dead". It's not until now that we are able to understand what that title really implied: Locke is dead, you can't come back to life. Some people even managed to figure it out during that episode. Ben summons Smokie, but instead of Smokie coming out of the jungle, Locke walks out of the jungle.

Funny you say that, i'm wondering how many posts there are if we look back after that episode that directly say "Locke is Smokey."

Then I'm wondering how many ways that was shouted down from the mountaintops.

And then i think, "we don't really know that the MiB is smokey, and we can only infer that the Locke that kicks Jacob in the fire is the MiB."

then my nose bleeds.

[smthng2dowthlost]

I think it goes even beyond this. I wouldn't be surprised to find out anti-Jacob is the reason Locke was able to walk again after crashing on the island. If you think about it, it fits perfectly. When the Others found out Locke could walk again after the crash that's what pretty much sealed the deal in their belief that he was their destined leader.

Richard even told Jack in the 70s that he didn't see anything special about Locke.

Edit: It's also funny to think about all those times on the island that Locke suddenly lost his ability to walk. I'm thinking mostly of the time Boone climbed to the beech craft and ended up dying. Was that anti-Jacob's way of saving Locke to continue using him?

I think of it as this other guy kind of forcing locke to have faith in the island. Everytime locke was doubting the island or confused his legs would stop working I think that was just to keep building up johns faith until he would be willing to die for the island.

[yokogleeton]

I think of it as this other guy kind of forcing locke to have faith in the island. Everytime locke was doubting the island or confused his legs would stop working I think that was just to keep building up johns faith until he would be willing to die for the island.

That's entirely possible but there were driving factors that I don't think the other guy could control. Case in point when Des heard John pound the hatch and flipped the light on, that renewed John's faith, but was not manipulated by the MiB necessarily.

[smthng2dowthlost]

That's entirely possible but there were driving factors that I don't think the other guy could control. Case in point when Des heard John pound the hatch and flipped the light on, that renewed John's faith, but was not manipulated by the MiB necessarily.

Yeah I can't figure out how that one fits in or could have been controlled by the other guy. there's always something that doesn't fit:D

[I'mnotlost]

Sooooo, anyway, to get back to the actual dialogue of this thread....does anyone have any ideas why John Locke said the same thing about smokie that Ben said...only alot earlier?
After locke had his skirmish with smokey, he said whatever it was he saw, it was BEAUTIFUL! He never saw it as a "Monster" like everyone else.

Maybe he called it that in later seasons, but only because thats what everyone knew it as(the Monster).

[notsolost42]

After locke had his skirmish with smokey, he said whatever it was he saw, it was BEAUTIFUL! He never saw it as a "Monster" like everyone else.

Maybe he called it that in later seasons, but only because thats what everyone knew it as(the Monster).

I think what he said was that he looked into the eye of the island and it was beautiful. He didn't call the smoke monster beautiful exactly. I just found it rather ironic that these two polar opposites, that we see, Ben and John Locke, should say the exact same thing at two different times. And how John disassociates himself with the rest of the survivors saying that those on the beach have a name for it...the monster. It has actually been suggested by some that Ben and John are twins or brothers I guess. I don't know about that. I think it is too easy to say that just because they both had mothers named Emily is a good reason to reach that conclusion. But, what I am beginning to wonder is if Ben and John represent the essense of Jacob and antiJacob, in reference to what they were saying about mankind. If this is the case, then Ben is the good guy without a doubt. Ben brings the modern technologies to the Others, living in the barracks, electricity, shoes, etc. and all without harm to the island. He demandds respect of the island. While John on the other hand, cringes at the thought of houses, electricity and any modern conveniences, saying that it is cheating the island. To me, he is expounding the theory of the antiJacob. Mankind comes, conquers, and screws up over and over again. While Ben is touting what Jacob says in that mankind can live in peace. This is the exact dialogue between Jacob and antiJacob on the beach:

JACOB: I take it you're here 'cause of the ship.
ENEMY: I am. How did they find the Island?
JACOB: You'll have to ask 'em when they get here.
ENEMY: I don't have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren't you?
JACOB: You are wrong.
ENEMY: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.
JACOB: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.
ENEMY: Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?
JACOB: Yes.
ENEMY: One of these days, sooner or later... I'm going to find a loophole, my friend.
JACOB: Well, when you do, I'll be right here.


So, somehow, I am getting the same struggle between Jacob and antiJacob as the one between Benjamin Linus and John Locke.....and it is indeed interesting that they both thought of smokie the exact same way....