The Fish That Jacob Caught

[notsolost42]

Interestingly, in the episode "Not in Portland" Karl is in Room 23 and we see part of the video. Well, on the video is a sequence of two pictures that have a phrase superimposed over them.

The first picture is that of five insects. The second picture is six orange fish. Exactly like the one that Jacob caught. The phrase superimposed over both photos...."We are the causes of our own suffering."

That sounded so muchd like the debate that Jacob and not Jacob were having on the beach. I looked up the phrase to see if I could find anything and sure enough, it is one of the Four Noble Truths on the path to enlightenment in the Buddhist religon. This is what it said:

"The second step is to take the sufferings we identified and to understand where they come from. The answers may surprise us. Suffering doesn’t come from outside sources – not from our car, our parents or our partners – it comes from inside; our own desires. More specifically, it comes from our anger, our lack of understanding the way our mind actually functions and our attachment to our desires.

When our desires are not met, we suffer. For example; our car does not cause suffering, our attachment to it taking us wherever we want to go, whenever we want to go there, however does. We desire to go to the beach. When the car breaks and we can’t get there, we get angry because we had attached ourselves to the outcome of getting to the beach. But, if our car does take us to the beach, we can also become angry because we got sunstroke while we were there and had to miss our date. To paraphrase the wise playwright, George Bernard Shaw; ‘There are two major tragedies in life. One is not getting what you want. The other is getting it.’ Each produces suffering."

So, is this a clue that our losties are on the path to enlightenment? The six fish representing the 06 that returned in one form or another...

Did Jacob bring them to the island on their path to enlightenment? One other little point about the video....remember the picture that is superimposed with "God loves you as he loved Jacob"......it's past tense, so how did they know when they made the video that Jacob was dead? There are so many references in the Room 23 video that seem to make some kind of sense now...we may not know exactly why, but they are referenced to the shows characters or actions....

[Panda]

."We are the causes of our own suffering."


"The second step is to take the sufferings we identified and to understand where they come from. The answers may surprise us. Suffering doesn’t come from outside sources – not from our car, our parents or our partners – it comes from inside; our own desires. More specifically, it comes from our anger, our lack of understanding the way our mind actually functions and our attachment to our desires.



So, is this a clue that our losties are on the path to enlightenment? The six fish representing the 06 that returned in one form or another...

Did Jacob bring them to the island on their path to enlightenment?

If suffering doesn't come from outside...than Jacob should know that there is no need to bring people into another location to find the cause of their suffering.
As the cause of their suffering is not where they live, what their parents do or did and so on.
At least if that is what is meant with what we see in room 23.
I have no Idea why Jacob brings those people to the Island.
It may be his own desire....the desire to have people around him that live peaceful and are not a thread to him....?
I really don't know.
Indeed if he brings people to the Island and if this comes from some personal desire of him...than it means that he is causing all the trouble on the Island....and that the cause of all the trouble on the Island is that he desire to have people around ...
In this form of interpretation Jacob is just a person with desires himself....so how could he put people on the path of enlightenment?
If you desire to get people on the path of enlightenment....that maybe it means that you are not on that path yourself?

Honestly....I don't know if that is the way how to interpret all this.
It is just rambling and guessing as I always do....but that does not mean that it is correct what I say. I am even not sure if it is the way to look at it.
That is why there are some question marks of course.
As we are not shown the intentions of Jacob....I can only guess.

[notsolost42]

If suffering doesn't come from outside...than Jacob should know that their is no need to bring people into another location to find the cause of their suffering.
As the cause of their suffering is not where they live, what their parents do or did and so on.
At least if that is what is meant with what we see in room 23.
I have no Idea why Jacob brings those people to the Island.
It may be his own desire....the desire to have people around him that live peaceful and are not a thread to him....?
I really don't know.
Indeed if he brings people to the Island and if this comes from some personal desire of him...than it means that he is causing all the trouble on the Island....and that the cause of all the trouble on the Island is that he desire to have people around ...
In this form of interpretation Jacob is just a person with desires himself....so how could he put people on the path of enlightenment?
If you desire to get people on the path of enlightenment....that maybe it means that you are not on that path yourself?

Honestly....I don't know if that is the way how to interpret all this.
It is just rambling and guessing as I always do....but that does not mean that it is correct what I say. I am even not sure if it is the way to look at it.
That is why there are some question marks of course.
As we are not shown the intentions of Jacob....I can only guess.

I was thinking that perhaps Jacob is helping the losties along their path to enlightenment. Each one was chosen at a point in their lives where they faced some form of suffering...except Hurley, Sun and Jin. Kate as a child suffering the guilt of stealing, Sawyer suffering over the loss of his parents, Jack having just suffered fear in surgery, Locke from his physical and psychological suffering, Sayid suffering at the loss of Nadia. There must be a good reason that Hurley, Sun and Jin were touched at a different point in their lives and Jacob did tell Hurley he was blessed and recognized Sun and Jin's love for each other telling them not to take it for granted. Perhaps they have reached a higher truth than the rest. I thought that the conversation between Jacob and the man in the black shirt on the beach was interesting and thought it similar in a way to a discussion of mans path to enlightenment. "The man claims that it 'always ends the same,' with destruction and corruption, when people are brought to the Island. The blond man replies that it only ends once and anything before that is just progress." In other words, Jacob feels that all of the life experiences are progress to enlightenment in some way and the end is reaching the Four Noble Truths.

The Room 23 video definitly refers to the Buddhist Four Noble Truths when it says "We are the causes of our own suffering." To me, it is what Jacob was saying as well when he says "It only ends once and anything before that is just progress." As I said, the ending being enlightenment.

I found it very curious that the fish in the video were the same as what Jacob caught and that it was significant that there were six of them, possibly representing each of the Oceanic 6. Someone mentioned that perhaps the video picture of the five insects represented that five of them returned to the island of the six. "In Buddhism, the golden fish symbolize the state of fearlessness while afloat in an ocean of suffering, or what Buddhists call ‘the sea of samsara’. The golden fish became the sign of happiness and emancipation, of freedom and spontaneity, all of which are the consequences and result of the liberation one experiences when taking the teachings of the Buddha to heart." In the Buddhist belief of reincarnation, even the insect can be no less than any other creature and can manifest the stream of consciousness of the spirit. If the five insects represent the five that returned to the island, Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley and Sun and are "reincarnates" (figuratively not literally) that would explain their personality changes when they returned. Kate became a truth teller, Jack stopped being controlling, etc.

Does that make any sense Panda? Am I explaining it any better?

[Panda]

Does that make any sense Panda? Am I explaining it any better?

Thanks a lot for explaining more in detail.
Now I understand how you interpret it
In this sense Jacob himself is a part of the progress right?
I will have to read it once more and let it simmer a bit.
I ll follow the topic and see what other people come up with as well.

You know it is really amazing how much details you catch in this show.

[notsolost42]

Thanks a lot for explaining more in detail.
Now I understand how you interpret it
In this sense Jacob himself is a part of the progress right?
I will have to read it once more and let it simmer a bit.
I ll follow the topic and see what other people come up with as well.

You know it is really amazing how much details you catch in this show.

TPTB have intentinally left a wealth of clues along the way. The only problem was we didn't know enough to recognize them. Now, with all the new information, I think there are many things to be found.

[krakup]

another nosebleed lol thanks :) but u know i love the fact you caught that fish in the video. well done!! :)

[Jelena]

I'm sorry to stray off the topic, but I gotta ask: what does TPTB stand for? I researched a bit on the web, and the only one that makes sense is "The people to blame". I have to ask, cause you're all using it a lot in your posts. :D

[krakup]

I'm sorry to stray off the topic, but I gotta ask: what does TPTB stand for? I researched a bit on the web, and the only one that makes sense is "The people to blame". I have to ask, cause you're all using it a lot in your posts. :D

the powers that be means the writers/producers

[t33h33]

I was thinking that perhaps Jacob is helping the losties along their path to enlightenment. Each one was chosen at a point in their lives where they faced some form of suffering...except Hurley, Sun and Jin. Kate as a child suffering the guilt of stealing, Sawyer suffering over the loss of his parents, Jack having just suffered fear in surgery, Locke from his physical and psychological suffering, Sayid suffering at the loss of Nadia. There must be a good reason that Hurley, Sun and Jin were touched at a different point in their lives and Jacob did tell Hurley he was blessed and recognized Sun and Jin's love for each other telling them not to take it for granted. Perhaps they have reached a higher truth than the rest. I thought that the conversation between Jacob and the man in the black shirt on the beach was interesting and thought it similar in a way to a discussion of mans path to enlightenment. "The man claims that it 'always ends the same,' with destruction and corruption, when people are brought to the Island. The blond man replies that it only ends once and anything before that is just progress." In other words, Jacob feels that all of the life experiences are progress to enlightenment in some way and the end is reaching the Four Noble Truths.

The Room 23 video definitly refers to the Buddhist Four Noble Truths when it says "We are the causes of our own suffering." To me, it is what Jacob was saying as well when he says "It only ends once and anything before that is just progress." As I said, the ending being enlightenment.

I found it very curious that the fish in the video were the same as what Jacob caught and that it was significant that there were six of them, possibly representing each of the Oceanic 6. Someone mentioned that perhaps the video picture of the five insects represented that five of them returned to the island of the six. "In Buddhism, the golden fish symbolize the state of fearlessness while afloat in an ocean of suffering, or what Buddhists call ‘the sea of samsara’. The golden fish became the sign of happiness and emancipation, of freedom and spontaneity, all of which are the consequences and result of the liberation one experiences when taking the teachings of the Buddha to heart." In the Buddhist belief of reincarnation, even the insect can be no less than any other creature and can manifest the stream of consciousness of the spirit. If the five insects represent the five that returned to the island, Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley and Sun and are "reincarnates" (figuratively not literally) that would explain their personality changes when they returned. Kate became a truth teller, Jack stopped being controlling, etc.

Does that make any sense Panda? Am I explaining it any better?


Have you's noticed how jacob keeps saying 'you have a choice'? and noticing the iron maiden fights. (lol) I think this just sums the show up, You have a choice to blindly follow whats going on and take it as truth and just keep waiting as the answer will come like jacob will come to the leader. Or you can go out of you're way to find it yourself, have you're own objective. Personally I think the jist of what the show is about is coming to surface, you either have faith or you don't. So who has faith in jacob? I don't think its about a path of enlightenment I mean there is many references to all different religions in lost I don't think it's going to pinpoint a specific one but it will use them all in order to describe a certain stage of this 'faith'. Does this make much sense?

[Panda]

I found it very curious that the fish in the video were the same as what Jacob caught and that it was significant that there were six of them, possibly representing each of the Oceanic 6. Someone mentioned that perhaps the video picture of the five insects represented that five of them returned to the island of the six.

If the five insects represent the five that returned to the island, Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley and Sun and are "reincarnates" (figuratively not literally) that would explain their personality changes when they returned. Kate became a truth teller, Jack stopped being controlling, etc.


I am sorry to bother you again with this question
But if 6 fishes representing the 6 of the oceanic 6.....Where did we see that Aaron was chosen or touched by Jacob?
Did I miss that or does they still have to show it to us?
And if the 5 insects represent the 5 of the 6 chosen ones that have returned...can we than conclude that it is for sure that Aaron will never return to the Island?or that he will never go to personality changers?

And about the changes in the personality....
About Jack...Has Jack really stopped controlling?
The reason why he wants to detonate the H bomb is because he can't accept what has been happening to him between the crash of 815 and till that very moment. He believes that everything can be "undone" by detonating that bomb, according to what Faraday said. So in fact that is still a way of being controlling.
Or don't I understand the word control very well?
In some way you may indeed say that he is 'total out of control" as detonating a H bomb is something serious of course....But I am like more talking about the motivation that comes before the action...and in some sense it is wanting to change things which is wanting to control things....something like that.

So thanks for any comment, corrections, insights on these questions.

[7stringking]

Some cool posts here............

[Smokestack360]

I took the offering of fish almost as a wink and a nod to the viewer. Almost as if TPTB correctly assumed we would view the Anti-Jacob as Esau. It reminded me of the biblical account where Esau comes out of the wilderness to find his brother cooking stew, and asks Jacob for a bit of it. Jacob offers some in exchange for Esau's birthright. It was always Esau's "choice" mind you. Just like Hurley's to get on the plane, Sawyer's to not finish the letter, Kate's not to steal anymore...etc.

This time around though Jacob offers up some fish freely, but "remembering" what happened last time, Esau declines, stating "No thank you, I already ate." That's how I took it anyways. In this light though, maybe we are assuming a wrong attitude towards Jacob, he is the "usurper" or "deceiver" (biblically). Maybe the island originally belonged to Anti-Jacob (Esau) and Jacob tricked him out of it, or at least took the leadership position from him. Like Widmore did from Ellie (??? I'm just assuming here), Ben from Widmore, Locke from Ben. Just a thought anyways.

[Dharma Material]

This might have already been mentioned, but wasn't the fish that Jacob caught a red herring?

edit - just saw this was posted in another thread! Sorry!

[Smokestack360]

I'm no expert angler but is there actually a "red" herring fish? I thought herring's were a silvery fish, in two varieties Pacific and Atlantic. I could be wrong though.

[Island Golf]

This thread is greatness, and I have been thinking about it since this afternoon. Thanks!

[notsolost42]

I'm beginning to think that there are three elements now. We have Jacob, not Jacob and the smokie monster. My thoughts lately have been that Jacob and not Jacob were banished to the island to settle their dispute and smokie is there to make sure they stay there...it is a security system and a judge at the same time!

If the story plays out as a mirror world in a closed timelike curve, which is entirly feasible, then the loophole was Jacob figuring out how to cross over into the other mirror world. I have said that before. The not Jacob passes into the other mirror world and that's why there are two John Lockes. He brings his body back with him and he is John in the other mirror world. This type of loophole is completly possible in the theoretic quantum entanglement worlds in a closed timelike curve.

So, perhaps not a game as such, but the settlement of a dispute....for all eternity.

[Panda]

I'm beginning to think that there are three elements now. We have Jacob, not Jacob and the smokie monster. My thoughts lately have been that Jacob and not Jacob were banished to the island to settle their dispute and smokie is there to make sure they stay there...it is a security system and a judge at the same time!

If the story plays out as a mirror world in a closed timelike curve, which is entirly feasible, then the loophole was Jacob figuring out how to cross over into the other mirror world. I have said that before. The not Jacob passes into the other mirror world and that's why there are two John Lockes. He brings his body back with him and he is John in the other mirror world. This type of loophole is completly possible in the theoretic quantum entanglement worlds in a closed timelike curve.

So, perhaps not a game as such, but the settlement of a dispute....for all eternity.

Well as I don't know enough to understand what mirror worlds in theoretic quantum entanglement ....really means....I will not go into that of course.
I'll leave that for the specialists on that topic.

What you wrote about the story of Jacob and anti Jacob got stuck are like prisoners on that Island and are not allowed to leave it as long as they haven't settled their dispute sounds good.
But I was wondering from what place they were banished to start from?
As we have seen that Jacob is capable to go the the "off Island" world where the losties come from.....
What does that mean? That smoky is not able to keep them both all the time on the Island?
Or indeed that there is a "second off Island" that we haven't seen yet?
And so they found both a way to leave the Island....but where they end up....is not the "world" they both once came from, or were banished from?

Is this a bit what you are saying?

The Island some sort of prison, smokey the guard. And two men in a dispute are locked up on the Island.
But what is the connection with the fishes? Or the Insects?
And in what way is Jacob than helping someone, when he can't help himself to start from, as he doesn't find a way to settle the dispute with the anti Jacob?

Just some questions.....again.....yes sorry :(

[Dead but Here]

I'm no expert angler but is there actually a "red" herring fish? I thought herring's were a silvery fish, in two varieties Pacific and Atlantic. I could be wrong though.

I looked this up a long time ago and I found that there are, rarely, red herrings. They attract the attention in a school of silver ones. That's why we have the expression 'red herring'. It's something that attracts the attention, but doesn't really mean anything.

[jblost]

I was thinking that perhaps Jacob is helping the losties along their path to enlightenment. Each one was chosen at a point in their lives where they faced some form of suffering...except Hurley, Sun and Jin. Kate as a child suffering the guilt of stealing, Sawyer suffering over the loss of his parents, Jack having just suffered fear in surgery, Locke from his physical and psychological suffering, Sayid suffering at the loss of Nadia. There must be a good reason that Hurley, Sun and Jin were touched at a different point in their lives and Jacob did tell Hurley he was blessed and recognized Sun and Jin's love for each other telling them not to take it for granted. Perhaps they have reached a higher truth than the rest. I thought that the conversation between Jacob and the man in the black shirt on the beach was interesting and thought it similar in a way to a discussion of mans path to enlightenment. "The man claims that it 'always ends the same,' with destruction and corruption, when people are brought to the Island. The blond man replies that it only ends once and anything before that is just progress." In other words, Jacob feels that all of the life experiences are progress to enlightenment in some way and the end is reaching the Four Noble Truths.

The Room 23 video definitly refers to the Buddhist Four Noble Truths when it says "We are the causes of our own suffering." To me, it is what Jacob was saying as well when he says "It only ends once and anything before that is just progress." As I said, the ending being enlightenment.

I found it very curious that the fish in the video were the same as what Jacob caught and that it was significant that there were six of them, possibly representing each of the Oceanic 6. Someone mentioned that perhaps the video picture of the five insects represented that five of them returned to the island of the six. "In Buddhism, the golden fish symbolize the state of fearlessness while afloat in an ocean of suffering, or what Buddhists call ‘the sea of samsara’. The golden fish became the sign of happiness and emancipation, of freedom and spontaneity, all of which are the consequences and result of the liberation one experiences when taking the teachings of the Buddha to heart." In the Buddhist belief of reincarnation, even the insect can be no less than any other creature and can manifest the stream of consciousness of the spirit. If the five insects represent the five that returned to the island, Jack, Kate, Sayid, Hurley and Sun and are "reincarnates" (figuratively not literally) that would explain their personality changes when they returned. Kate became a truth teller, Jack stopped being controlling, etc.

Does that make any sense Panda? Am I explaining it any better?

Great catch notso- In Buddhism, the final steps are to move beyond duality. Jacob seems to have moved beyond duality; he doesn't hate the anti-Jacob, he accepts him and even offers him fish he caught. Kind of love your enemy type moment.

The statement that Jacob makes 'it only ends once' also correlates with yogic thought (Buddha was a yogi, from India) that all humans will eventually end up enlightened. Everything on the way to this is 'progress'.

The role of the guru is to speed up the journey to enlightenment, offer ways and methods to accelerate the process. Eventually, we will see that we are the source of our own suffering, and begin transcending it.