The whole loop-hole thing

[anitawee]

Well it obvious that the guy from the past on the beach is now in the form of john locke. I believe he is some sort of demon that can take the form of someone thats dead on the island. Therefore the guy that we saw sat on the beach is not his true form. Maybe his true form is the smoke monster? Anyway it appears that this demon has been manipulating the losties to create the loop-hole. "and you have no idea what ive been through to get here" For example, he took the form of jacks dad. He told john locke to kill himself. And bens daughter who told ben to obey john. I think he also convinced ben and richard that locke was to be the leader.

One thing i dont get though is why the demon (as john) didnt know where jacob was. He did know when he sat next to jacob on the beach.

Of course i dont like using the word demon(makes it sound silly), but you get the idea.

[smthng2dowthlost]

I agree with you for the most part and yeah we gotta think of a better term than "demon". It's been 100 150 years maybe he wasn't positive where but most likely in my opinion if locke, this new locke hadsaid let's go to the foot to see jacob richard might think something was up, So he played dumb to keep the facade of locke going so ben would listen to him.
On a side note the smoke monster said do what john locke says if ben had found out that this wasn't really john locke would ben still listen or would he reinterprete what the smoke said or would he make the connection that smokie is locke(maybe)?

[losttime]

Well it obvious that the guy from the past on the beach is now in the form of john locke. I believe he is some sort of demon that can take the form of someone thats dead on the island. Therefore the guy that we saw sat on the beach is not his true form. Maybe his true form is the smoke monster? Anyway it appears that this demon has been manipulating the losties to create the loop-hole. "and you have no idea what ive been through to get here" For example, he took the form of jacks dad. He told john locke to kill himself. And bens daughter who told ben to obey john. I think he also convinced ben and richard that locke was to be the leader.

One thing i dont get though is why the demon (as john) didnt know where jacob was. He did know when he sat next to jacob on the beach.

Of course i dont like using the word demon(makes it sound silly), but you get the idea.

To give the illusion that he was still John Locke I think he pretended he didnt know where Jacob was. If he is in fact the guy on the beach, which i think he is, than it was just an act on his part.

[Locke=Cylon?]

To give the illusion that he was still John Locke I think he pretended he didnt know where Jacob was. If he is in fact the guy on the beach, which i think he is, than it was just an act on his part.

I'm with you on this. He knew where Jacob was. If he were to just make a beeline to the statue, he could've aroused suspicion as to his true identity, and he needed everyone to trust him to pull off his nefarious plot. He has been a masterful manipulator. He sure had me fooled. What really blows my mind is looking back on the scene in which we think Locke is sending the message to himself, via Richard, that he has to die to complete his task. It is actually this impostor, setting the stage for his ulterior motives to come to fruition. This is the point at which Locke's fate is sealed. Wild stuff, on all these levels. I love this show.

[anitawee]

What really blows my mind is looking back on the scene in which we think Locke is sending the message to himself, via Richard, that he has to die to complete his task. It is actually this impostor, setting the stage for his ulterior motives to come to fruition. This is the point at which Locke's fate is sealed.

ahhh yeah i knew there was something i missed, its well clever

[anitawee]

id like to also add .....
.....that the guy in the cabin wasnt jacob it was the demon. Firstly because he said "help me" to locke, he also tore the place apart, and if jacob is the good one he wouldnt do this.(maybe thats why he also asked ben why he had pretended jacob was there).When the new team went to the cabin, didnt she say something like jacob hadnt been there in along time? The ring around the hut was broken so it was obvious someone else had been there. Didnt we also see jacks dad there with clare also?

[Chronos]

I agree that the entity in the cabin that said "help me" to Locke is indeed anti-Jacob/Esau/demon. Ilana stated that Jacob evidently had not been there for a while, and the fact that the ash circle was broken indicates that (a) someone/something was being confined to the cabin and (b) he/it escaped.

As for fake-Locke asking where to find Jacob, I do not believe that it was because he didn't know where to find him. We have, for a while, been told that there are rules. Ben talked about Widmore breaking the rules, and about not being able to kill Widmore because of the rules. We also have anti-Jacob talking about a loophole in order to be able to kill Jacob. According to Merriam-Webster, a loophole is "a means of escape; especially: an ambiguity or omission in the text through which the intent of a statute, contract, or obligation may be evaded". In other words, when anti-Jacob says the he's going to find a loophole, he's saying he is looking for a way around the rules.

Now, we still do not know what the rules are. Nevertheless, it is evident that in order for fake-Locke/anti-Jacbo to be able to find his loophole he needs certain parameters. One of these would likely be that he needs to be the leader of the others and to have the support of all the others. Note the duality of the term "Others" here... it isn't what Jack and the Losties have been using, but rather, the "others" in Jacob's group.

Fake-Locke/anti-Jacob needed to (1) become the leader by replacing the existing leader (Ben), (2) fool Richard into believing that he was the leader (Richard expected Locke to be leader, not anti-Jacob) and (3) fool the others into following him to go see Jacob. Did anyone notice how many times fake-Locke asks other people to confirm that he's the leader? He's reinforcing the status he needs for the loophole to work.

When anti-Jacob shows up at the foot of the statue, he comes with the backing of the entire group. By their mere presence, they are supporting their leader (despite the fact that they've been fooled) and is thus in power to kill Jacob.... or, rather, have Jacob killed by Ben, something that also must be a key component of the loophole. This last item could be because anti-Jacob cannot truly be the leader, thus Ben is still the real leader and is the one who could actualy, according the rules and the loophole, kill Jacob.

Something else that supports this group support idea is when Ben ousts Widmore... Richard is present and evidently some members of the Others, indicating that there is support for exhiling him off Island. This must also be part of the rules and is similar to the reason anti-Jacob rallies the troops to go see Jacob.

One final thought... Ben may have been groomed by anti-Jacob to assume the role of leader and somehow may have manipulated the circumstances for him to rise to the position. He must understand that Jacob doesn't care about Ben ("what about you?") and has the perfect vessel in Ben to create the resentment needed to fulfill the murder of Jacob. It isn't likely that Ben would have actually done it on his own, even with the resentment, so he needed someone to prod him..... John Locke's stand in.