Relationship between Ben and Richard

[Sox1Series]

So I've been thinking about why Locke2 instructed Ben to kill Jacob - what was the 'loophole' - was it Ben? What was different about Ben? Well, as a boy, Ben was brought to Richard who took him to the temple to save his life. Richard said something to the effect (to Kate and Sawyer) "he will always be one of us now". So it makes me think that Jacob could only be killed by "one of them", whoever "they" are.

Now consider this. All those years when Ben was the leader of the others, he would go to the cabin to get instructions from Jacob. We now know that this was a farse, that Ben never saw or heard Jacob all those years. Yet, Richard bought into it. Either he knew Ben was lying, or he just fell for it? Richard knew exactly where Jacob was in 2007 when Locke2 demanded to see him. So why didn't Richard know he was not in the cabin all those years when Ben went to see him?

Do you think Richard has never met Jacob? If not, why? If yes, then why didn't he know Ben was lying all those years? OR INSTEAD....was Richard purposely keeping Ben FROM Jacob all those years, and letting Ben be a puppet leader. Maybe Richard & Jacob were just pulling the strings for Ben letting him think he was the leader.

Does anyone know where I'm going with this? I'm confusing myself.

[bunnydixon]

i am not sure if ben thought it was jacob in the cabin prior to the incident with himself and locke. perhaps before that, it was always jacob to richard to ben.....and this was why jacob & ben never met. but maybe he knew all this time jacob was in the foot.

we only ever see ben go to the cabin as the leader of the cabin expedition if you like (i think - my memory is a bit shaky on that) and that is with locke when whoever it was throws a hissy fit. any other time, its been someone else who has lead the ay to the cabin. and when ben went, he was only trying to fool locke as it was so he thought he knew at that point jacob was NOT there.

have i made it even more confusing? i am thinking yes lol!

[New Age Messiah]

I think Richard is the dark side. Becoming one of us means joining the dark side. Richard is the same level character in the "game" as Jacob, i.e. not bound by space or time, whatsoever.

Widmore became a threat to Richard, so Richard helped Ben mutinize the others/hostiles, knowing Ben was a pathetic megalomaniac, and would be EASY to manipulate. Richard told Ben, you are the chosen one, and Jacob only talks to the chosen one, so Ben pretended to himself (megalomania) that Jacob talked to him. Richard was like the daddy that says with big eyes, "Really??? Wow. Jacob said that???"

So Ben was at once Richard's pawn to get Widmore off the island, but at the same time he was Jacob's pawn, because Jacob knew the rules, knew he had to be killed by the "chosen one" of the dark side. He told Locke "Help me" and Locke did help him.

End game, end result, is that Jacob wins, Richard loses, curse is broken, Losties are free. I think in the end the island disappears. I think it was created especially for the Black Rock crew, as a course correction...

[Sox1Series]

I think that Richard may very well be a bad guy. He led Jack and Sayid to the basement of the Dharma house, then let them go on without him (to save Elloise). Then Richard led Locke2 and Ben to Jacob, and once again let them go in without him. Richard definitely has an agenda, but we just don't know what it is.

[LincolnEcho06]

I don't know about the Star Wars Darkside analysis, but Richard Alpert is a missing link.

Ben did hear voices, I think, it was in the Man Behind the Curtain from season 3 I believe; so maybe this is the leverage or reason for Ben's promotion.

If the eternal Richard Alpert, and Jacob alike, can be killed by their kind then it would be smart to have a shadow government with a puppet leader. This way Alpert survives and the shadow government continues from Jacob in the achile's heal of the statue (yes I know it's foot, but I'm stretching it to make it significant).

It might have been season 3 where the Others/hostiles argue about the 4 that were captured (Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley). Jack originally was not on the list given from Jacob to Ben (or perhaps from Jacob to Richard to Ben).

In hindsight, wouldn't an ancient statue on beach sand begin to sink gradually over the years? Why couldn't Jacob stay in the hatch and press the button? That would have saved some time, but probably would have eliminated a season's worth of storylines (at least half perhaps) [can't have that].

[MonicaLynn60]

I think Richard is the dark side. Becoming one of us means joining the dark side. Richard is the same level character in the "game" as Jacob, i.e. not bound by space or time, whatsoever.

Widmore became a threat to Richard, so Richard helped Ben mutinize the others/hostiles, knowing Ben was a pathetic megalomaniac, and would be EASY to manipulate. Richard told Ben, you are the chosen one, and Jacob only talks to the chosen one, so Ben pretended to himself (megalomania) that Jacob talked to him. Richard was like the daddy that says with big eyes, "Really??? Wow. Jacob said that???"

So Ben was at once Richard's pawn to get Widmore off the island, but at the same time he was Jacob's pawn, because Jacob knew the rules, knew he had to be killed by the "chosen one" of the dark side. He told Locke "Help me" and Locke did help him.

End game, end result, is that Jacob wins, Richard loses, curse is broken, Losties are free. I think in the end the island disappears. I think it was created especially for the Black Rock crew, as a course correction...

Well now- your "Course Correction" made me think of something......

You ever see "Jumanji?" The Movie with Robin Williams, Helen Hunt, and Kristen Dunst? (Spoiler ahead if you have not)


Well, remember when they are playing the board game- if they complete the game, everything changes...so they complete the game- however- since the game started in like, 1954....THAT'S the time they went back to! The two kids hadn't even been born yet, an Robin and Helen's characters were kids themselves!

What if you are right? What if once this "Course Correction" is made, and it goes back to The Black Rock???? Captained by DESMOND ..carrying passangers: Jack, Claire, Charlie, Boone, Shannon, Kate, Hurley, Sawyer, etc., etc.....? Remember, Desmond DID come by boat!

AND---with all of the clues concerning the board game RISK throughout this show...maybe there is some vilidity to this theory! :D

[JohnQ]

Bonnie Hunt was in Jumanji, not Helen Hunt.

[MonicaLynn60]

Oh! Sorry, I get their names confused all the time....no idea why- but you've obvisiouly seen the movie then.

[3d-aholic]

Now consider this. All those years when Ben was the leader of the others, he would go to the cabin to get instructions from Jacob. We now know that this was a farse, that Ben never saw or heard Jacob all those years. Yet, Richard bought into it.

I got a twist on this....
The guys carrying Locke-D (Dead) first went to the cabin to look for Jacob....but he wasn't there.

So if you actually assume that Jacob is normally at the cabin, given that story line, then why did Richard take him to the statue? Unless he actually knew that Jacob was not at the cabin which would almost immediately presuppose he would have also known about the black ash around the cabin (with doorway)...which means that he would already have a "headsup" on smoky...and thus probably on Locke2 as well.
:eek:
Something definetly weird there about the cabin -vs- the statue....

[wiley]

I got a twist on this....
The guys carrying Locke-D (Dead) first went to the cabin to look for Jacob....but he wasn't there.

So if you actually assume that Jacob is normally at the cabin, given that story line, then why did Richard take him to the statue? Unless he actually knew that Jacob was not at the cabin which would almost immediately presuppose he would have also known about the black ash around the cabin...which means that he would already have a "headsup" on smoky...and thus probably on Locke2 as well.
:eek:

I think that Nemesis is the one that was normally in the cabin. Jacob asked Ilana and co. (his loophole) to come to the island and rid him of his nemesis, that's why they went straight to the cabin. But someone let him out before they could get to him. Locke was an unexpected surprise for them. Finding Richard was probably their second priority (to team up?). They took dead Locke along because they were not sure what to make of the fact that there were two Lockes, but they knew it was important and needed instructions.

[Richard_Cranium]

I think that Nemesis is the one that was normally in the cabin. Jacob asked Ilana and co. (his loophole) to come to the island and rid him of his nemesis, that's why they went straight to the cabin. But someone let him out before they could get to him. Locke was an unexpected surprise for them. Finding Richard was probably their second priority (to team up?). They took dead Locke along because they were not sure what to make of the fact that there were two Lockes, but they knew it was important and needed instructions.

I like your theory the best so. good work

[3d-aholic]

I think that Nemesis is the one that was normally in the cabin. Jacob asked Ilana and co. (his loophole) to come to the island and rid him of his nemesis, that's why they went straight to the cabin. But someone let him out before they could get to him. Locke was an unexpected surprise for them. Finding Richard was probably their second priority (to team up?). They took dead Locke along because they were not sure what to make of the fact that there were two Lockes, but they knew it was important and needed instructions.

Ok, I'll bite but then how do you explain...
1. Why would they carry a dead Locke to the nemesis??
2. How can "ash" (aka smokey by-products) keep nemesis trapped in the cabin when you would think that ash would be something that would keep the good guy at bay.


Also this in general brings out a weakness in the story line if just any old person (Ilana, Ben) can just stab Jacob or Anti-Jacob with a knife. These dudes should have been gone about a week into it don't you think?

[New Age Messiah]

What if you are right? What if once this "Course Correction" is made, and it goes back to The Black Rock???? Captained by DESMOND ..carrying passangers: Jack, Claire, Charlie, Boone, Shannon, Kate, Hurley, Sawyer, etc., etc.....? Remember, Desmond DID come by boat!Um, Widmore was captain, Desmond was first mate. :DAND---with all of the clues concerning the board game RISK throughout this show...maybe there is some vilidity to this theory! :DI never played Risk. Have you heard my cosmic bullet theory? I think I like you, btw.

[wiley]

Ok, I'll bite but then how do you explain...
1. Why would they carry a dead Locke to the nemesis??
2. How can "ash" (aka smokey by-products) keep nemesis trapped in the cabin when you would think that ash would be something that would keep the good guy at bay.


Also this in general brings out a weakness in the story line if just any old person (Ilana, Ben) can just stab Jacob or Anti-Jacob with a knife. These dudes should have been gone about a week into it don't you think?

Of course there is a lot we don't know. But Jacob did visit Ilana and ask for help, and the cabin was the first place she went.
As far as dead Locke goes - see my last post.
What makes you think the ash is a by-product of the smoke monster? We have never seen ash anywhere except around the cabin.
And why should we assume the ash would be used to keep the good guy trapped. In most of the supernatural stories I've seen, a circle of ash or salt is used block evil.

[3d-aholic]

Ok yes, I can see the circle of ash salt thing.

Hmm, maybe tell where going to take the dead locke to the anti-jacob to show him that his plan was hatched or wasn't going to work because Locke was dead.

[Evenstevens]

Um, Widmore was captain, Desmond was first mate. :DI never played Risk. Have you heard my cosmic bullet theory? I think I like you, btw.


I've not read the cosmic bullet theory but would like to. Can you point in direction of it?

[New Age Messiah]

I've not read the cosmic bullet theory but would like to. Can you point in direction of it?It's simple. Sumeria used to be Egyptian territory, the island is half a world away, so to speak. So a cosmic bullet hit the ocean where the island is (now), pierced the earth clear through to Sumeria and exited.

A piece of Sumeria was pulled back through the vacuum, turned inside out and upside down, recreated as an "mirror universe" island, simultaneously exposing the Egytian underworld, so to speak.

There is a crater on the island (Rousseau's map) and a black hole under it.

Time/light does not move in a black hole, the time space lines are curved around it, scientifically an anomoly would be created, CLOSE ENOUGH to play the time travel game, and the end of the world scenario, earth falls into the black hole if you don't push the button, and spirits are exposed, because the earth was turned inside out sort of, and it's now a mirror image of what it was in Sumeria, and the Egyptians controlled the territory, hence...

It explains everything. I think there is even a myth about some God throwing a star at the earth out of anger and spite at Mother Nature or something.

[losttime]

Ben said that Richard brought him the lists from Jacob. The cabin was used by Jacob at one point but according to Ilana has been empty for some time and not only that but was being used by soeone else. In that scene where Bram said look at the ash. I think it wasnt the fact that there was ash but the ash was interupted.